Comment by intended | Hacker News Reader

Comment by intended | Hacker News Reader

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Hey it's you! there's quite a bit that has been achieved by successive Indian govts on shoe string budgets.

We've had the green and white revolutions, the IITs and other edu programs, large medical programs, ISRO (and the sensing tech that comes with it).

This is from a once impoverished country which later had to deal with the fallout of weaker institutions, brain drain and corruption/dacoity/booth capturing and a whole host of problems that include terrorism and war.

Post 1991, once the economy improved there's been significant improvement in out fortunes/tax kitty allowing for many other improvements (not to mention economic freedom).

This argument comes up very often, even in other countries and its spurious on the facts (Indian facts above), and on the logic - taxation is not a choice.

Don't forget it's a chicken and egg issue as well - without funding you don't get services, which makes you blame the govt and not want to give them more funding.

> Don't forget it's a chicken and egg issue as well - without funding you don't get services, which makes you blame the govt and not want to give them more funding.

Tell me how the taxes government already has, doing ?

> We've had the green and white revolutions, the IITs and other edu programs, large medical programs, ISRO (and the sensing tech that comes with it).

Correct me If I am wrong, this does not even account for 1% of tax spending.

> This is from a once impoverished country which later had to deal with the fallout of weaker institutions, brain drain and corruption/dacoity/booth capturing and a whole host of problems that include terrorism and war.

No this is from 60 years governments who still havnt stop exploiting its people.

> taxation is not a choice.

The issue is not taxation. Its where its being spent. If I had more say, I will gladly pay more. But I hope you understand why I would avoid paying (as much as I can, and ofc legally) taxes if its not even being spent on me.

Indian governments (current & previous) has failed its people and its most undeserving of taxes.

> this does not even account for 1% of tax spending.

Yes, but there are a few other areas that take a major portion of the take spending which we forget to acknowledge in such discussions because it does not affect us muddle-class / affluent people directly - Defense, subsidy of urea and other rural benefits programs (yes, agriculture is in a mess and a lot more can be done but with the introduction of Aadhaar and Jan Dhan, things are looking up)

> Indian governments (current & previous) has failed its people and its most undeserving of taxes.

Yes the previous government had really fucked up (I tend to think UPA did a decent job in it's first term, it's the second term that they really got greedy and hence their state now), but we should give credit to the Modi government for a lot of the economic reforms of the past couple years.

Please note, I'm pretty neutral on politics and do not stick to one or the other camp. This govt. has messed up on a lot of the social issues (Beef bans and communal tensions, JNU student protest situation, Kashmir violence and many more).

However, on the economic front, India is really moving in the right direction - Focusing on Startups and business friendly policy changes, making brand India attractive to the world (FDI), passing the GST (massive task and looking to be implemented pretty quickly come April), introduction of UPI [1] (this will definitely move the country forward to a more cashless economy), integration of all the digital services (Aadhaar, Digital Locker, etc), black money declaration schemes and prosecutions (The situation on the ground is actually changing, people are much more scared of hoarding black money now) - These are just some of the things off the top of my head (Credit to both the Govt and the RBI).

Don't also forget the aggressive change in stance on how to deal with issues coming from across the border.

Again, there's always going to be a million other things that can be done better. But you have to admit this government is doing a much better job than a lot of previous ones

[1] https://www.quora.com/How-will-the-UPI-interface-of-NPCI-cha...

> However, on the economic front, India is really moving in the right direction - Focusing on Startups and business friendly policy changes, making brand India attractive to the world (FDI),

The red tapes that should not have exist in first place but yes step in right direction.

> passing the GST (massive task and looking to be implemented pretty quickly come April),

Its reduction in tax burden (allegedly).

> introduction of UPI [1] (this will definitely move the country forward to a more cashless economy), integration of all the digital services (Aadhaar, Digital Locker, etc),

More surveillance ? That will only be used for good, right ?

> black money declaration schemes and prosecutions (The situation on the ground is actually changing, people are much more scared of hoarding black money now)

Depends on who is hoarding. If its your local shop, government has no right to interfere unless what they get from the government is more than what they pay in taxes.

You misunderstand my previous comment. I am saying government is like a mob that extort money in return for not f__king your shit up (and that is puttign it lightly). And Indian Governments (from 1950-today) are the biggest the world has ever seen, actively exploiting billion people.

I dont think government has inherent right/duty to tax its people or to assume the duty of developing infrastructure etc. In my opinion government has only two task 1. Defend its people. 2. Maximizing profit for its natural resources. Everything else should be left at competing private companies.

Hmm as much as I'd like to agree with you, don't think its necessarily spurious on the facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India

From another perspective, the Rs 1000 note was demonetized in 1978 as well to curb unaccounted money. More than 30 years later, we've had to do it again because the underlying problem wasn't solved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_1000-rupee_note

Maybe this time it'll work. Time will tell.

You can't compare 1978 with 2016. Removing 500 and 1000 rupee notes as legal tender in 2016 accounts to more than 80% of total cash circulation. This is huge. 1000 Rupee note was a very small percentage of cash circulation in 1978.

It will work for the current undeclared income. Soon people will begin hoarding the new currency notes. Or become wise and not stash money in currency.

Under the recent tax amnesty scheme if somebody had declared rental income, or business income, they will have to continue declaring it for years to come.

I personally believe that the bigger players in undeclared income are not keeping it in cash, they have assets bought in the names of trusted people, be it cars or properties.

And that is the difference here. Corruption is big players. Undeclared income was for avoiding taxes by mostly regular people.

Corruption had already found a work-around. And even if not, it was free money when they got it; they might not miss it. Regular people were trying to save 30 paise to a rupee that they earned, they will now have to pay it.

The current method is a way to fight black money. For corruption there are other ways, and maybe some will be taken.

> The current method is a way to fight black money. For corruption there are other ways, and maybe some will be taken.

"Black money" term is so misplaced, it should be untaxed ruppes. It wont affect untaxed assets (overeseas and here).

And guess who has most untaxed ruppes and who cant afford to lose any more ? Low/Middle Class. Good job Modi. You just alienated they very people who voted you in the office.

I too do not think this move alone would solve "Black Money" problem in long term, but it certainly will go a long way in setting a better trend.

> You just alienated they very people who voted you in the office.

All govts till now have been doing politically right thing, rather than morally right. If a Govt., for once, tries to go beyond the vote-politics and do what's right, shouldn't that be a welcome change?

> I too do not think this move alone would solve "Black Money" problem in long term, but it certainly will go a long way in setting a better trend.

Only if the problem is inadequate tax revenue, which is not the problem IMHO. Its tax spending.

> All govts till now have been doing politically right thing, rather than morally right. If a Govt., for once, tries to go beyond the vote-politics and do what's right, shouldn't that be a welcome change?

Not before coming up with better tax spending plan. I have never gotten my taxes worth nor I expect It now, irregardless of how much they take my money.

Don't justify your skirting the laws. Why don't you spend the tax you don't pay to the government to a charity?

I dont want to pay for what I am not getting. Is that so hard to comprehend ?

> Don't justify your skirting the laws.

Breaking laws ? That would be playing right in their hands. I would not give them the satisfication to confiscate my properties and lock me up.

Most of the tax goverments think they should but dont get are legally avoided. They have to be. Otherwise exodus would be catastrophic.

> Why don't you spend the tax you don't pay to the government to a charity?

First my money my rules. Second if the charties help me ofcourse I would for example EFF.

So please justify more of your extortion.

Brilliant. We need to introduce more Indians to the ideas of individual liberty and conservatism as it exists in the United States. By that I mean personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty. The governments in India at every level (starts from municipality all the way to the Center) have been so deep rooted in their corruption that its imperative people understand there are alternates to Big Government.

> We need to introduce more Indians to the ideas of individual liberty and conservatism as it exists in the United States.

I would not describe USG as such. No government exploit small businesses like USG. Its the government that first adopted income tax in its current form and motivated other governments. But I digress.

In my observation only wars and natural calamities bring social changes. So the whole structure must fall down on its weight for people of India to see the light, despite it being delayed, it will come. Seeing the reponses here and in /r/india we are in full exploitation mode.

I for one not going to hang around. I have stopped thinking of myself as a citizen of a country but as a global citizen. If one country does not appreciate/respect me, I will move to another. See Flag Theory [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_traveler#Flag_theory

You really think that the Low/Middle class is the target here? Are the people hoarding crores in cash low/middle class?

Low/Middle class is indeed saving 30p per rupee. But they aren't storing them in 1000 rs notes, they are spending that to better their lives. This is really against Medium to big businesses, and rich people like jewellers, goldsmiths and builders.

> You really think that the Low/Middle class is the target here? Are the people hoarding crores in cash low/middle class?

Earning Rs 21,000/mo even in 2nd-tier cities are not uncommon. Your local small nookad shop (mom & pop shop) can easily clear that in one month. And most of them are not in system. So guess who just had their saving (hoarding? lol) evaporated ?

Those who have too much money, has money to hire tax experts. So IDK this really looks like anus-f__king at scale.

I think the intended target doesn't matter, because the collateral damage is much larger.

I am genuinely unsure as to how this will play out - I see the good intentions and the executional hazards.

Facts about the economy - it's largely unorganized. Meaning builders and jeweler are not as large as the people doing labor and other mom/pop transactions.

Being unorganized they don't have bank accounts (also ,exams that wealth is stored in assets like gold).

M1 money, is 27 trillion. If 60% of that is in 500/1000s that's 16 trillion. Which has become useless over night, and will disproportionately affect those unorganized people who aren't on the Internet or HN.

The other effect is that yes, people are going to be unable to do black real estate transactions. But this has happened before and it didn't end those particular transactions.

I'm guessing this will be a windfall gain for PSU banks and the exchequer.

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