Why UK Brexit Talk Baffles Germany
bbc.com
bbc.com
Sometimes though you just say no, this is one of these times. As a German I'm not baffled at all by the U.K. Brexit talk. Politicians in the U.K. have simply created a mess they don't quite know how to get out of, this is how they placate the electorate while they're trying to figure it out.
It seems to me what's really baffling to some people is how Germany thinks of the EU. It seems to me that not many people realize just how highly the EU is valued in Germany across the political spectrum. People seem to severely underestimate what sacrifices Germany is willing to make in the context of Brexit to benefit the EU.
Among politicians in Germany I think the consensus is that having a hard Brexit, a crash of Britain and the effects on other countries in the EU including Germany would be unfortunate. Further damage to the EU however would be considered catastrophic. At least some people in Berlin have essentially already written off the U.K. in their minds.
If article 50 is invoked in march and the clock starts ticking, it will be fascinating to see the horror of the people coming to realize this.
The perception of the EU as a German project — or experiment, if you will — was one of the factors leading people to vote for Brexit.
That's an absurd state to be in and it's already a parody of itself.
Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments.
I support federalisation of EU. Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody. Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states, UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat, different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection.
Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps
Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past
"Most", need I say more?
> Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody
"Ok so what we're doing isn't working out but if you give us more money and power I swear it'll work guys! Just trust me and give up your currency, boarders, militaries, and legislative branches and don't worry this isn't sketchy at all"
> Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states
Ah so the EU is now a charity/Robin Hood organization. Not a government? Most government's aren't so selfless. I'd go so far as to say that no government can be as selfless.
> UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat
Criminal City?
> different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection.
That's what happens with all governments. It's not about the public, it's about maintaining power.
> Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps
Would you have found it better for black people living in America during segregation to say "Any talk of "equality" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the government and the kkk and the racist people" or do you think it was right for them to fight to reverse the encroachment of their basic human rights?
I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class.
> Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past
I can't see a single economist predicting a good future for the EU. It all looks doom and gloom from here on out. I'd say that the countries that are the worst off would benifit the most from less trade regulations. Look at what China and India have become. "Super power by 2020" would be a great thing to hear about the eastern block but that will never be the case under EU's thumbs
What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can just sidestep the parliament
Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights protected
Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK
Everywhere there is doom and gloom, not just EU - the current financial system will collapse under the unbearable debt that is created ever quicker.
And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you.
Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...
I'm not British so I've done nothing but what I see as an outsider is a parliament that feels it can entirely sidestep the wills of the public.
> Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights protected
We'll I'd assume it's to avoid foreign control over their domestic affairs. I don't think any country should be subject to the moral judgement of other nations and I would like to point out that the UK offers some of the best humanitarian protection to it's people. I'd call this point a bit of a non sequitur.
For instance, let's say I'm rich and I'm investing in a set of manufacturing companies. If I want to pull all of my money out of foreign markets and I state by pulling money from my off-shore cookie factories does this mean I hate cookies as a product? I don't necessarily feel that is the case especially if I still have investments in, or have future plans to invest in, domestic cookie production.
> Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK
I've never head of this but I'd chalk this up as a job for Interpol if it's a set of people engaging in money laundering and tax evasion. This is again a non sequitur as every country has this. Switzerland, France, and other EU countries are if anything more guilty of this then the UK.
(Yes I know Switzerland isn't technically an EU country but it was a founding member of the EFTA so I'm counting it as they are still subject to trade sanctions that have never been levied from my understanding)
> And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you.
You have a lot to offer. You're main point of attraction is different cultural backgrounds and different legal precedents. Many eastern block countries have the perfect storm of intelligent people, good universities, and a strong set of natural resource that they could turn from shabby to economic powerhouses overnight if they where allowed to engage in some practices that haven't been monopolized by the EU. One such example was the British fishing industry. [0]
> Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...
I don't feel that I'm bitching and moaning. I feel that I'm presenting my opinions on the topic. I'm going to have to pick this apart bit by bit because there's a lot crammed into this one section.
> You bitch and moan about how EU is evil
I don't think it's evil. I've never said that and I don't think I ever will say that. It's the same way I've never said the Mafia was evil. I don't agree with a lot of the things that both the Mafia and the EU engage in but can see exactly why they have done these actions and their arguments for why these things are acceptable.
One such example is intimidation of people leaving the group -- the topic that started this discussion You made it a point to say:
> taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer
I find it very odd, and would never want to participate in a group, that would feel the need to intimidate people leaving it. For instance here in the States if one of these United States didn't want to be part of the union anymore I'd feel perfectly fine with putting it up to a vote for the people in that state. That's perfectly fine for me. I'd also be against any state attempting to "get back at them" or "teach them a lesson for going against the group". That's just bullying and I wouldn't expect it from anyone of polite company; that is behavior of children at play in an elementary school.
The Mafia also made attempts to intimidate people who left their ranks. Now I understand it from a Mafia perspective as a Mafia is meant to be run as a corporation. It's not for the benefit of the public but for the benefit of Mafia's stake holders. For them, intimidation is a form of self-preservation in an attempt of it's members to do the best for themselves, not to go against the will of the public.
What shocks me the most is that people are okay with hostile intimidation from the EU [1] but not from the Mafia when I feel it is more justified for a Mafia to do this then a government.
A government is meant to services as a way for regulating the people. If the people aren't being regulated fairly then the government should either change to shape themselves in the image of the public's morals or be removed from their place as the model of governance for the public. Now I've never seen this happen without violent kicking and screaming, as we are seeing here with the EU.
I don't support what the EU because it is a vengeful organization that want's it's fingers in all of the pies around the world. Not for the benefit of humanity, but instead for the benefit of a well segregated ruling class that looks down at many of you as mere peons.
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/07/europe...
Having lived in Europe ... I was absolutely shocked at the dissonance between their elite and their plebes. It's laughably crazy.
It's so much, it's almost unbelievable.
Euros come from a historical situation wherein they hyper-powerful nobility ruled all.
They overthrew that - but the condescension still very much exists. Now - when you go to Oxobridge or a 'Grande Ecole' you're party of the elite, they go off and give each other the plumb jobs, protect each others careers and act like rulers.
Because even on the other side of the fence - the socialists - are led by intellectuals, not so much by 'the people' (i.e. labour) - both sides of the aisle are utterly out of touch.
Brexit itself should be a shock to no one who has the pulse of Europe.
It's only shocking to the disconnected chattering classes.
They consider anything anti-EU to be 'fringe' and 'far right' - when in fact about 1/2 of Europeans would dump the EU if given a chance. Even in Germany 48% don't like the EU - not to say they would dump it but they don't like it.
A former Obama White House official described the regulatory capture of US copyright policy as "extremists are people who talk only among themselves".
For me, perhaps the most disappointing aspect of election press coverage, has been the inability to generalize. To see the monster in the mirror. Much was written about Trump supporters tolerating lies, living in an echo chamber, and believing absurd things. But I haven't seen a single article pointing out the similarities to Fortune 500 CEOs making press statements that directly contradict their SEC filings, and getting no grief for it. And to beliefs like "makers and takers", and 'let them build and assemble the things, but we'll keep the manufacturing design and engineering'. I recently talked with a Harvard professor who had taught the latter years ago, asking "WTF? Anyone with a manufacturing background would have told you that's absurd. What happened?" He said, "It was the idea in the air at the time, the thing everyone was saying".
"Everyone". Groupthink, being out of touch, seems a prominent failure mode of the US political establishment. And it gets very little analysis.
Nevertheless this also means that while the majority profits some smaller though still significant part of the population gets screwed by this.
This isn't exactly the message you put out so you wrap it up in some euphemisms for voters. This has nothing to do with being out of touch, this is politicians and CEOs saying what they need to be able to do what they want.
Additionally this is overall hardly a European phenomenon. People tend to associate mostly with people similar to themselves, especially when it comes to education which correlates to income and jobs.
The education system reinforces this strongly in most countries. In the US this begins as early as starting school based on which school (district) the parents can afford. In Germany you have Students being separated by education level after primary school (4th grade). If you go to university you might almost never interact with people with a different education level, apart from family or the people you buy stuff from.
I'd also wonder just how many of those 48% that don't like the EU, would miss what the EU offers. I'd wager most not just don't know what it offers but don't even really know what exactly is bad about it.
This is a good reason why the EU should fail, and why people voted for Brexit, which will hopefully go some way to making that happen.
To the average citizen, the EU is a gargantuan bureaucracy, burning through enormous sums of money, whose main concern seems to be churning out reams of incomprehensible regulations. It also has some courts that overrule our national governments from time to time.
I like the concept of a more integrated Europe, but the EU is just the first attempt at it.
The vast amount of "regulation" is simply standardization to simplify trade in the single market. The industries affected themselves tend to want it even while people make fun of it in the media.
The amount of money invested in the EU is really not all that enormous, besides it's not like it disappears in a black hole. It seems like any significant infrastructure project in the EU gets at least some EU funding. Especially Eastern Europe has benefitted greatly from that and we all benefit as the East catches up with the rest of Europe.
In any case you can't just scrap the EU and start fresh and instantly come up with the perfect solution. This is not how politics and policy works or has ever worked. Any non-trivial system is built iteratively through incremental improvement, especially large systems. A more integrated Europe is achieved by improving the EU not by replacing it with some fantasy that will never come to fruition.
It was led, but one of the official foci was "Arbeiter bilde dich", "worker teach yourself". Basically, a goal of the saner strands of the left is to make what we call "intellectual" right now the new baseline. And with good reason. The only way to make a political system like democracy work is to build a good education system to get "mündige bürger", emancipated citizens. And originally workers thought for their education(it is telling that https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeiterbildung exists only in German), recognising it as a tool that the upper classes used as an advantage. But for decades an anti-intellectualism has developed, reinforced by the "get a good career" educational goals(and if you want to be conspiratory, also a shift against critical political education pushed by those in power. I don't believe in that though, I just think in the well meaning pursuit of a "good education to get a job" in what is just too little time and with too little resources luxuries like politics get cut as collateral) . And elitists on the left,center and right, who think they were born smarter than everyone else didn't help either, thinking they need to "lead the masses" or that they can decide acceptable options.
As before, one of the real goals should be to fight together to ensure everyone reaches the level of education that allows them to participate in an informed political process.
Barack Obama was born to a broken family, father a Kenyan and absent, they were poor, he grew up to be president.
It's possible in Europe 2016, but I don't think likely.
Most American CEO's and millionaires are self-made, the average American millionaire drives a pick-up truck. The head of Goldman Sachs grew up poor.
European leaders are a whole different breed of 'detached from the plebes'.
Offering a biscuit from a tray and keeping a poker face during negotiations are two very different things, nobody mixed them up.