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Comment by kluck | Hacker News Reader

Here is an easy alternative to a MacBook Pro (easy for a professional anyway): Buy a standard Laptop with matte display. Install Arch Linux (learn one thing or another on the way). Use Gnome 3 (maybe install some software from Pantheon as well, like the file manager pantheon-files). Get work done.

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I think it's unfortunate you're being downvoted, but here's the thing: you go to the Apple store, buy a laptop, bring it home and plug it in and it works beautifully from day one. That's Apple's value proposition. (Subtract "beautifully" for Microsoft's.)

Your plan means I'm signing up for a period of pain of unknown duration. It could be four hours or two weeks. And for the next three years I might have a laptop that doesn't sleep properly when I close the lid, or that can't talk to the printer at the office but there's a forum thread somewhere where somebody thinks they solved it.

One of the characteristics of any "pro" market is that these are people who simply aren't going to waste their time messing around with something when there's an alternative that just works and lets them go back to doing whatever it is they do that earns money.

You bring up an interesting point: There are different kind of Pro's. For IT professionals my suggestion is valid in my opinion, but for all other professionals, like audio engineers or graphic designers, not so much. I understand that most professionals really see their pc as a tool that needs to work from day one. But as a professional knowing about the internals of such tool, I really see Apple's (and Microsoft's) computers so very differently.

I've been doing software development professionally for the last 20 years now. I used to build my own pc's and installed linux and had fun compiling the kernel and so on. After about 10 years of that I started to find it annoying.

For the past 5, I haven't even looked at the insides of a computer. If the hardware breaks, I take it to the dealer to get it fixed. Somehow at one point spending time to make the tool work stopped being fun and got annoying.

Maybe it's just me, but I have heard other people having the same type of experience.

If I try to figure out, why, then the thought that pops into my mind is creating value. If I use the tool I have (2014 mbp) then I create value by writing software (you can argue about the external value if it, but for me it creates value by giving me money). If I spend time configuring the tool to make it work, I'm not creating value - the work I'm doing is not unique or interesting to anyone, it's just spending time. Perhaps as I get older and feel the amount of time left getting smaller and smaller, it drives focus away from spending time to creating new things (value).

Sure, if you do not see value in spending time learning about computer internals (through fixing issues that pop up) then it is not time spent well.

During the last few years using my 2008 MacBook Pro I find it harder and harder to get stuff done. As a software developer I have to install/upgrade/configure certain software TOOLS for my work that I can not in a flexible robust way using MacOS X. That is the main reason for me to ditch the old fruit, apart from the proprietary mess that is Apple/Microsoft.

If it was "learning about computer internals" that would be one thing. Most of it is closer to "learning which kernel version randomly works with your hardware" and then rewriting your tiling window manager configuration file because the old format isn't supported anymore. You could spend that time studying an EE textbook instead and get more widely applicable knowledge.

Whatever makes you happy is fine, but beware putting yourself on a high horse with statements like "if you don't see value in learning...".

When I build my last pc ~3 years ago I spend a while picking out components and after it was assembled(an hour of work essentially) I only open it up maybe once or twice a year to clean the dust filters and any dust that maybe made it's way inside(not much since it's a high-end case). It's really 2-3 hours of hardware maintenance a year.

Software is a bit more involved, but since I picked out all the components with Linux in mind I've had no major problems. In fact if I screw something up I can reinstall the os and have it back to the state it's been in about an hour. Reinstalling Kubuntu takes 20 minutes, installing all the packages I need takes another 15m, fiddling with the settings another 10. I have my /home on a separate partition so I don't lose anything and even my Firefox session get's recovered.

Now, it took me a while to get my setup to that state. Finding a distro that works for me took take a few experiments, but I don't get what the big deal is? This is a tool that I'll probably use for years, why not invest a little bit of time up front to get it just right? Yeah, it's nice that you can buy something and have it "just work" but for me personally I've never used a single piece of software or hardware that didn't go through an initial period of flux as I've fiddled with the set-up until I made it just work for me.

That's the thing though, I don't fit the profile of a common user, and probably not that of a common tech professional either. I mean, I use a custom Dvorak-like layout and I moved all my modifier keys around to be more like a lisp-machine keyboard, the market never has and never will produce something that I can buy and have it "just work".

Oh, let's not forget the . files, I've been continuously refining them for close to a decade now, that doesn't happen on it's own, I have to fiddle with it, I have to accept temporary loss of productivity for the payoff of increased productivity later when I get used to a refined workflow. I have to make experiments with new tools, I have to play with the settings. My work absolutely involves fiddling with my tools, if I didn't I'd still be using notepad++ on windows and using time-stamped directories as version control. It's a long term investment in a personal workstation that absolutely adds value over time, just not immediately and sometimes you have to accept the waste of time and account for it, it's just part of the process. I've had good results so far and very little alternative since like I said, the consumer market absolutely doesn't account for my style of use :)

> temporary loss of productivity for the payoff of increased productivity later

I don't think the numbers add up. If you like tweaking things, it's a kind of hobby, which I totally get. I used to enjoy doing this when I had fewer responsibilities and demands on my time.

However, you can't really know if it's increasing your productivity, and I don't think that's a good justification for doing it. There's nothing wrong with tweaking things just because you can and you enjoy it.

It is a pain to seek out a laptop designed for Windows and then install a Linux distribution on it, but you can also just get a laptop from a vendor¹ that specialises in GNU/Linux compatible hardware and get a working Ubuntu laptop from the minute you start it up — perhaps half an hour longer if you want to install a different distribution. Everything just works.

1: E.g., System76.

Perhaps, but if you purchase from System76, you then spend the next six months dealing with random hardware issues and the occasional software issue and eventually you end up wiping it, giving it to the kids or a friend, and buy yourself another laptop -- putting you right back where you were six months prior.

You have a point, but I am not sure about the last paragraph. In the 90's many pros used Macs even though they we often incompatible with office networks, and a lot of software had no Mac version. I think pros are willing to go off the beaten path if they can get something that is really good for their core work.

> it works beautifully from day one

It depends on what kind of work you are doing, but for me this is not true. I need to do a lot of unix-ish development, so that means installing XCode (OK), installing Homebrew (or MacPorts or Fink and finding out which one is better), Sublime (or emacs or vi), a bunch of other tools. I need a week or so until I get it where I want it. This is not too different from my experience on Linux or Windows. Installing Linux is the easiest part - in fact, in most workplaces, you just give it to the IT department and they do it for you in a couple of hours.

A week or so sounds a bit ridiculous. The only thing you need to do is install Xcode, then run a script which installs Homebrew. You can even use Homebrew Cask to install macOS apps, and MAS to install anything else from the App Store. All-in-all from installation to scripts completion, maybe an hour?

Source: Our IT department is a bit of a nightmare with Macs so I have to set them up for all our devs.

Agreed.

Everyone calls themselves pros, but nobody wants to get their hands dirty with Linux. Basically everyone's a pro-sumer.

When I go to the mechanic he doesn't care if the tools get him dirty, he uses the best tools for the job, not for his clothes. I get that some people want to look at gorgeous UIs but nobody told me how that gets the work done.

I want to use the best tool, and I try to define best as objectively as possible. Faster CPUs is better. Native support for docker is better. Walled garden is worse. macOs is better if you do ios apps. UI look&feel is debatable. Preference on terminal emulator is debatable. More memory is better. If you do devops and ssh onto linux boxes, linux is better. etc.

That's quite a romanticized stereotype of a mechanic. It's also the wrong analogy. The computer, in that analogy, is his tool. It may be the "best for the job", but the mechanic isn't usually mucking around in its internals. When the hydraulic ramp is broken, he calls someone.

There is absolutely no need for someone writing software to ever open up his computer, or to compile the kernel they're running natively (if you're actually working at kernel-level, you'll do most of it in VMs). All that stuff can be fun, no doubt. But it's your hobby, and really no reason to feel like a superior "professional" vs. the lower classes of "prosumers".

My point is that the fact that you need to recompile a kernel or do some pkg install to get (for example) a machine that supports 32gb is never an excuse NOT to get it. And people do open their laptops (ex: upgrade from HDD to SSD) or install new kernels (ex: docker support).

Don't take my post as a superior class claim. If I say I am a pro, and I say I need 32 gb I go and get it. Don't care if I have to spend a day installing arch because 32gb are worth it. Ofc theres all shades of gray and I understand people like to look to antialiased fonts instead of green-on-black, or don't like to learn a new package manager syntax but please that is absolutely not directly related to the delivery. The time you spend configuring a system is completely amortised over time, if the system is better.

True about the kernel, but I've recompiled many of my tools(for example linux repos sometimes provide outdated versions of packages and I need something newer). I often dig in source if I find bugs, or under-documented areas, sometimes I just want to know what is really happening. True, that doesn't make people who don't do that any less "pro", but it does make me sharper as a practitioner. I earn a deeper knowledge about my tools and my environment and occasionally pick up good ideas, or learn some horrible truth about a beloved tool. Programming is fairly unique in the sense that our tools and our products are made of essentially the same stuff. At the very least I consider this a form of exercise worth practicing on a regular basis. It's not strictly work, and not strictly a hobby.

Can you list the software applications you are using?

I tried to switch but there is basically no professional software on linux for non-server related tasks. Just replacing something like Fantastical (calendar) or OmniFocus (gtd) is hard/impossible. Other pain points are replacements for DevonThink (reference manager), Evernote (note taking), papers (bibliography/search), lightroom (photo management and editing), keyboard maestro (macros). list just goes on and on.

If thats what you do professionaly then use it. I use mostly zsh, IntelliJ, Emacs and a browser. My work is 90% terminal/editor/browser.

Used to do audio back in the day, linux was crap, even windows today is crap (I have to use crazy drivers to be able to play guitar without lag, using asio4all. if I were a pro I wouldnt compile the kernel on linux to support preemption or whatever alsa requires these days, would go to macs).

Also know a few people who did a phd and do alot of research, they say papers is the best app ever. Wouldn't recommend anything other than a mac for them.

Well, i also use vim/zsh/intellij as well as all the apps i listed above. Intellij on its own isn't good enough if i can't manage my tasks/calendar/research/notes... Hence I am curious how you do that?

Personally, I stopped trying to find an app to do all of that. I put my notes in gmail drafts and try to keep them at a minimum, put my appoints in google calendar, and use short-lived bookmarks. For projects, I put tasks in the README so I'm always updating it.

I painfully found out some time ago that I don't need much more than that - I try not to have lots of reminders/todos/etc. I don't do research or photo editing, or much more than coding anyway.

Thank you

Personally, I stopped trying to find an app to do all of that. I put my notes in gmail drafts and try to keep them at a minimum, put my appoints in google calendar, and use short-lived bookmarks. I painfully found out some time ago that I don't need much more than that - I try not to have lots of reminders/todos/etc.

If I had to do that, I would try to do it on the web instead of using a dedicated app. If you really need all of that well I guess you're stuck :)

It's all debatable. Your OS choice is subjective, but if you like Linux and have fun with it that's as good a reason as any.

As much as I love running Arch on my school laptop, I'd never run it on a laptop I would use for making money. I'd probably be using something like Fedora, a stable distro that doesn't break whenever I update en masse. I usually don't have too many huge bombs go off in my face but the most recent round of updates I applied totally killed my sound and some NetworkManager features. Annoying, not totally disasterous, but I've had some killer bugs in the past that have made me waste time on fixing issues when I should have been studying.

If I'm getting paid, I'm not spending the time on fixing all the small issues that pop up with Arch. I love it otherwise. Sometimes it's fun to blow a few hours on a weekend fixing some random bug that has only ever happened to you. Sometime's its not fun and just really inconvenient. I always keep a backup Windows partition just in case something bad happens and I really need to use a computer for a bit or if I just need to run some random Window's only app.

If updates in Arch frequently "destroy" some features, you could do this: have two partitions, each with Arch on it and bootable from the boot manager. The first is minimal (rescue system) and the second is the one you use. Then before you make an update, boot into the rescue Arch, backup the second Arch partition's data, try the update and see how it goes ;)

Yeah... Or use basically any other OS and get shit done without every update degenerating into a day's worth fiddling.

Running Arch for years, and an update has never broken my system. It requires more maintenance, sure, but Arch is incredibly stable generally.

Gnome 3 still isn't stable for mrle. Admittedly I am on Ubuntu, but it will freeze every few days.

The sure fire way I can think of right now is trying to drag a window from one desktop to another in the overview.

I'm quite good at breaking software, considering doing a semi regular video on favourite things that break.

Genuinely curious here: why Arch and not Ubuntu or Fedora, considering the workloads will probably run on either Ubuntu or Red Hat/CentOS?

I would agree, except substitute Plasma for Gnome 3.

Sure, that is just a matter of taste. But no matter which window manager you choose, running Linux, you are actually released from the Apple prison (technical and mental prison).

(Speaking as a current user of an old MacBook Pro which is my first and last Apple product. Also I had an iPad but sold it long ago.)

I smashed my Nexus 6P's screen and have been using a friend's old iPhone 4s in the meantime as my old Androids were either damaged or totally dead beyond recharging. Disregarding the sluggishness of the phone (it is 5 years old...), there are so many things that even a stock android rom will allow me to customize that iOS doesn't even think about.

I just cracked open my old Droid Razr to jumpstart the battery so I could get back to android until my replacement 6P comes.

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