GoPro shows its vulnerability after horrific Q3 earnings
techcrunch.com
techcrunch.com
"Cool! This should be straightforward, everyone uses GoPro cameras for that, so a I'll need to buy two GoPros!" was my immediate thought. All ready to give GoPro my money.
Oh, but they dropped stereo genlock after the 3+..... wait what?!?! VR filmmaking is one of those things that people are heavily experimenting with. Why would they purposely drop this segment when it's only just starting to pick up? This is a segment not filled by their ultra-expensive 360 rigs.
So off to eBay I go. Hmmmm.... do I need a 3, a 3+, a 3+ Black? A 2? Is there a 2 Pro or something? Do I need the 3D kit or the dual-Hero kit? Does it even still work with the latest firmware?
It's so confusing that even some people on eBay honestly weren't sure what they were selling.
There are a few things that could fill this niche, all right now frustratingly in 'pre-order' or 'might be out the end of this year' state. Yet GoPro had this and they just.... dropped it.
Too many different models in the past, just far too confusing.
For the record, I've gone with used GoPro Hero 2s from eBay. Just waiting on the sync cable now. Will see how that works out :)
Basically they got crushed by DJI (which was pretty predictable since the Phantom was already kind of the Bandaid/Google brand of consumer drones before 3DR went all-in with the Solo).
3DR still exists but is trying to pivot into some kind of "enterprise" mapping drone company.
Although I think truly immersive 360 video would require not only stereoscopic eg. Dual cameras per fov, but also that new camera technology that captures at multiple depths of field. Litho or something don't know what it's called. Then you can focus on different focal points of the video like up close or super faraway
https://www.engadget.com/2015/09/08/gopro-odyssey-rig-for-ju...
Edit: actually the phased array crap I thew in there doesn't make sense, only of you're meeting an em wave not receiving.
Unlike GoPro's overreaching application process, $100, or $1k fee, and an extremely limited API/features, these guys practically shove as much documentation and libraries down your throat that they can. I fucking love Point Grey cameras.
I won't reiterate my complaints with my GoPro camera because I've bitched enough already on HN. The summary is that it is probably one of the most disappointing, and frankly, aggravating pieces of tech I've purchased in the last decade. It's not a matter of "cheap Chinese knock-offs" being almost good enough. It's that what the Chinese are copying wasn't all that good to begin with, so it's not terribly hard to match on quality and then undercut massively on price.
Note : I have an action camera, but it's from Garmin
Fwiw, I own a GoPro, but use Garmin's video editing software. Not only do I find it easier to whip up quick edits, but I can also overlay my Garmin Edge cycling data.
The software, for those who are interested: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/into-sports/apps/virb-edit/p...
Okay, I'll strap my Pebble to the handlebars as there's a GoPro app for the Pebble. But the Pebble needs to go to the iPhone, which then talks to the GoPro iOS app, which then talks to the camera. Yeah, you can see where this is going: I spent more time trying to get all those devices to stay connected than I did riding.
Fine, I didn't want to do it, but I'll buy your $80 remote with status LCD. That piece of shit didn't work any better. I spent most of the time looking at an animated WiFi icon because it couldn't find the camera literally 50% of the time. If it did find it, it often wouldn't stay found. A single company made the hardware and firmware on both ends, and they still can't get them to stay connected.
Additionally, the thing eats batteries. I wouldn't mind so much if there was a way to power the thing while its in the case. There is a way, but it'll cost $65 for a waterproof case with USB port from a third-party vendor. I bought one. And about half the time when the bike fires up and pumps power to that connection, the GoPro's little pea brain gets confused and needs a reboot.
This is the kind of stuff I expect when I bought the cheap Chinese knock-off instead of the name brand. But I did buy the name brand, and specifically for this reason. And I end up still having the cheap Chinese knock-off experience, only at name-brand prices.
Agreed. I gave one to a friend as a Christmas present a few years back and this was her big complaint. Mounted on a helmet (for whitewater paddling in her case), she was never sure whether she was turning it on or off.
In general the whole UI was just pretty awful in my experience. I get that it's hard but this strays pretty close to the "You only had to do one thing" meme. (Well, the rugged case, but that's not rocket science.) Their main innovation looks more like great marketing and community building to me.
If you get the GoPro phone app, you can do a live preview of what the camera can see and you can fiddle with most of the settings. I usually use my phone to make sure everything is pointing correctly from my helmets pov and then tuck my phone into my backpack.
Truly one of the worst apps I've ever used.
I motorbike, mountain bike, rock climb and race cars with the gopro, and the only thing I pay attention to is the audio cues.
It is a visual status indicator.
Stabilization is (very) poor, and image quality is so-so, but the thing works flawlessly; it's remote-controlled by the Garmin watch via a special connection that never drops, and powered by the bike. I love it.
> I spent most of the time looking at an animated WiFi icon because it couldn't find the camera literally 50% of the time.
...Ah! Now I remember why I completely gave up on the GoPro app and just use it as a standalone camera. Their wifi connectivity is an absolute joke. I guess I'd suppressed that memory :/
I've owned a GoPro since Christmas of 2014. After less than a year of use the camera would start washing out videos while recording with flares of green and pink then freezing typically after 11 seconds of filming.
When I looked on support forums I found that this was a known issue with my GoPro version. However GoPro would not admit the defect and after talking with support they could do nothing for me.
I decided to keep using the camera as I use it for primarily 1 second videos. 2 months later I take it diving, the housing fails at 30 feet (its rated to 120 feet). I call support again:
I'm offered 10% off my next GoPro.
In my opinion GoPro is a dishonest company who does nothing to stand behind its products of which their price does not match their dismal quality.
ProTip: Ebay sells action cameras with all the same features, better build quality for a third of the price
Yeah. Too much of that and they might issue another fraudulent DMCA takedown.
But I'll be damned, according to you I was right.
This was from a shipping manifest search a few years ago.
Because, as I've outlined elsewhere in this thread, I'm an idiot who thought the name brand was a safe bet and didn't do enough research.
That said, most of the time it's mounted to the front crash bar or a saddlebag. Not a big fan of protrusions on my helmet.
A key advantage of the Drift and similar systems is the camera sensor can be rotated with respect to the camera body. So it doesn't matter that it's at an angle, close to your shoulder: the picture is still upright owing to one twisting the lens.
- The rectangular box shape of them is bulky and awkward, particularly when you add the protective case on top, and seems particularly ridiculous compared with other sleeker helmet cam designs,
- The mountings seem prone to work loose. One guy spent most of the time with his helmet mounted GoPro filming the ground in front of him and he had to keep fettling the thing to get it back into place.
- Turns out GoPros had the time had terrible dynamic range so everything that was covered in snow looked the same uniform white, particularly on brighter days. Picture quality sucked. This has improved somewhat in subsequent updates but I would have been fuming if I'd dropped the £300 (plus the cost of accessories on one).
- When I did look at buying one knowing exactly which accessories I'd need was confusing.
- Just way too fiddly to use when wearing any kind of gloves, which is hopeless for what's supposed to be an action cam,
- In general seemed to lead to an awful lot of faffing around by owners; to me it just looked like one more piece of gear to worry about that was mostly going to serve as an annoying time-vampire.
Apart from the picture quality issues, none of the above has changed as far as I know, only now there are so many extant models it's even more confusing trying to figure out which to buy.
Part of me dies inside every time somebody gets out a GoPro (or one of its many clones) on a ski/snowboard trip because you just know it's going to lead to an inordinate amount of buggering around.
I fully admit, #firstworldproblems, but as far as I'm concerned GoPro suck: they're an expensive waste of time and money.
In the end, for various reasons (mostly because I wanted a camera for my motorcycle), I caved and bought a Garmin VIRB. This has the following advantages:
- Doesn't need (quite) so much supporting paraphernalia, primarily because unless you plan on going diving it's waterproof enough without requiring an additional case,
- Overall it's very robust,
- Easy to switch on and off with gloves on (there's a big slider switch on the side of the camera),
- Picture quality and dynamic range are good, even in very bright conditions,
- Generally sleeker design.
I've used it for motorcycling, skiing, and as a dashcam.
All of that said it some bad points:
- Still a certain amount of confusion over which you actually need for your chosen activity,
- Mounting brackets are somewhat fiddly and can work loose,
- Battery life isn't great,
- Batteries take hours to charge,
- Apart from record on/off, the interface is kind of clunky,
And there's one ugly point:
- The software it runs is really unstable, and regularly crashes; this can be extremely annoying when it misses the crucial piece of action because of it.
So, overall, I still wouldn't buy again.
Oh, they do, but it doesn't ship until the end of November. The Engadget review (dated today) [1] presents a good look at the device and how it compares to the competition -- different trade-offs. Nicer if you're in the GoPro ecosystem, but the competition is a better flyer.
So perhaps the market for rugged cameras is fairly saturated by their own products, and the aerial market has partially sailed while they were working on theirs?
1. Many people buy these camera's that never use them, or use them a few times but realize editing videos takes longer than they hoped it would. So after a while of non use, they sell the camera.
2. They built a good product, one that lasts and is therefore good for the used market. People are comfortable buying a used GoPro because they know it's rugged and well built.
So GoPro's have a good resale value and therefore many people that might normally buy a new one, instead turn to the used market which doesn't help GoPro at all.
Editing is an art - sure you can automate it, but until we have strong AI it's not going to be a substitute for a talented editor.
I've got literal hours of video of some dirt road in the Alaska tundra. No one wants to watch that, I've got to whittle it down to the highlight and parts that folks might enjoy, like the mountain goats in the middle of a blind corner or the moose running across the road. And that is time-intensive; literal hours for fifteen minutes of something I'd share with people. Not just finding the interesting parts, but captions and titles, and some kind of soundtrack, it all adds up to non-trivial amounts of time. One could just hit the "share" button, but no one's going to watch more than 30 seconds of it.
One also quickly learns that from the camera's POV a lot of stuff looks alike. Our recent trip down the Icefields Highway in British Columbia looks like any of a hundred mountain roads when viewed through the lens of a camera. Makes me kind of wonder why I bother.
Automated editing solutions would help, but compared to editing by hand, I'd say they would compare same way as Instagram filters compare to a photographer/retoucher working in Lightroom/Photoshop.
So... they would propel you and your company into the stratosphere of success? :)
I agree with your premise; the hard part is definitely finding the interesting bits. Actually putting them together is easy after that. There's some good stuff happening with "exciting moment detection" based on other sensors; like peak heart-rate and speed if you record those on Garmin.
Not affiliated, just a happy user.
They should sell like apple - "we are launching best ever go pro, 67% brighter than any other go pro" lol
Also, I disagree that the modern economy is unregulated. Quite the contrary, in fact. And it's regulation, bailouts and crony capitalism that protect companies who make awful products.
The profit motive covers (a).
This is a big reason Apple is the world's largest computer computer company despite charging more for the same transistor counts. People are actually willing to pay a huge premium for reliable stuff that they don't have to junk after a year. The market gets it right.
[0] https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AAAPL&fstype=ii&ei=...
I'm talking about my mom's 1957 Ford pickup that still runs great today. I'm talking about the Ostrisizer can opener from the 1970s that my family still uses in their kitchen. 5 years lifetime for a $800 product is not "built to last".
Not quite that exact combo, but you get the idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPF4fBGNK0U
Oh but you're talking about pickup trucks and can-openers. Oh ok my bad.
Were those created by socialist / communist economies now?
What are we even talking about here? Did capitalist economies develop these things or not? Does the profit motive not motivate the auto company and can opener company to produce a better product?
Capitalism _could_ produce products (even high-tech products like phones) that last for longer than 2 years (e.g. swappable chips/boards/screens, etc), but it doesn't, because the rapid, constant growth demanded by investors is antithetical to making products that are built to last.
I think consumer video in the last 10 years went from expensive and ok quality to dirt cheap and professional quality. The same thing that happened to audio happened to video. Now all of that GoPro tech is hitting smart phones and ultra cheap Chinese knock offs.. The whole consumer electronics space has been eaten by the smartphone.
Same thing is happening to Apple. The cutting edge is slowing down or is too good already and everything is starting to get super cheap and commoditized. It's hard for premium brands to get an edge.
My GoPro 2 is still going quite strong, despite having hit the asphalt on at last two occasions at high speed (well, high for a bicycle) due to their plastic mounts breaking. I switched to a third-party, metal mount, and haven't looked back.
There's also more competition.
I'm inclined to think point 1 is significant though. This seems like one of those products/product categories that was a hot ticket for a while. Then most people who bought them realized that they didn't actually jump off cliffs and, after the 10th time, the video of them going down an intermediate ski run was sorta boring and not really worth the trouble to make. So, like many fads, it didn't go away but it wasn't a must-have gadget for the would-be daredevil (or those who wanted to think of themselves in those terms).
The 5 also turned out to be a little cheaper for my use case than the 4.
That's not necessarily true. The counterargument is that having a good resale value allows you to charge more for your new sales because of the added value.
But giarc's point wasn't so much about resale value (despite his claims of the opposite), it was about an active second hand market due to (1) confused first time buyers and (2) a reputation of ruggedness.
It basically boils down to: more people buy gopros than there are people with a real usr car for them, this is why the second hand market exaggerates market saturation effects more than usual.
Whether or not GoPro generates more total sales as a result of their products' value in the used market, they are able to charge a higher price for new sales because of it.
It may be that the higher price does not offset sales competition from used products, but that is another question.
Do you know of anything similar that is available for Android?
My Facebook page hit peak GoPro video 3 years ago.
I was going to talk smack about getting my Mavic before GoPro shipped theirs, but now I'm just sad.
I do admit that it's necessarily hard for GoPro to do this, because they're a high-tech, discretionary consumer product -- the competitor landscape is always shifting and advancing, and a ton of factors affect consumer spending choices. GoPro is not a networking company with ten big and slow-moving clients. Something as simple as gas price hikes (less discretionary budget), or a new wearable product released by a different company (drains from "cool new toy" budget), could affect their sales.
Stocks like GPRO, FIT, etc are really hard to analyze, for these reasons and others.
Then again, I guess you could say that makes the task of managing expectations all the more important.
[1] http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/02/investing/gopro-charity-shar...
The drone would be a big hit if Dji didn't just blow the roof of with their incredible mavic pro that came on the market this week. It is by far the best consumer drone available and smaller than the go pro.
The GoPro is for when you want a drone that can carry your camera that you can also detach and use with their stabilized handle, which you can then take the GoPro out of completely and use on it's own.
The Mavic is for people who want a smaller drone.
Both are good tech, and I plan on getting both of them within the next year, but the GoPro one is going to be my first of the two.
Based on this video the price, stability, amount of features and just about everything is worse than my old DJI Phantom 3 Standard.
I wished GoPro Karma would be good but based on reviews I'm not impressed and probably end up going with Mavic Pro even though I just bought GoPro Hero 5.
These are today's on NASDAQ http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/trader.aspx?id=TradeHalts
I wonder how exactly that works. What kind of news does it apply to? Is it common? Can a company ask for a trading halt on its own before it releases bad results?
This is one of the reasons why companies often release their quarterly results after market close. It allows all relevant parties to be able to access the latest information before selling resumes.
If this wasn't the case, then users with the fastest connections would be able to process, and react to the data before others in the market had a chance to do so as well.
2) Many HFT firms do not specialize in 'news-reading'. That is, they will sit out periods when an expected announcement is coming. You can observe this by looking at the liquidity of a product just prior to an expected relevant news release - there will be very few orders.
3) There are more events than just news events that require speed.
you can sell your assets outside the marketplace just fine.
if they just allow orderbooks to get skewed more and more in one direction you just run head first into a potential macro crash and sometimes thats just a little more important than you wanting to unload your 60 bucks of stock.
And I'm pretty sure there's government regulation requiring them to do this.
>And I'm pretty sure there's government regulation requiring them to do this.
And who runs the government, empirically speaking?
"Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence."
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
everyone can do that. you can take your 30 shares of random company x to your mom and sign a contract with her buying the shares.
anyone can do that.
stock exchanges are private businesses with private rules about who can and can not use their servers. they're open from 9:30 to 5. if you want to buy during other hours, you better find someone to buy from.
as far as the "look people are evil here's ONE ARTICLE of evidence" paradigm goes - its a bit lame. for further reading, google selection bias.
if you read my post, i'm not saying that this is good or bad. its just fact.
forex goes down during all news. doesnt mean that big banks cant trade with each other during news. doesn't mean that you can't walk into a commercial bank at noon and buy some currency. it just means that one exchange doesn't want your business during news because they'll potentially enter significant counterparty risk.
they just exercise their right of refusing to do business with you. doesn't matter that its automated through software. if I know for a fact I don't want to buy from door to door salesmen at 5am and turn my doorbell off during the night, its conceptually the same thing. you cant have it both ways. you can't only have "capitalism" when its good for you. you're either free to enter contracts or you're not.
and in case that's somehow not clear: stock exchanges are private for-profit companies. they're not institutions bound to some weird codified public goodwill. whether thats a good or bad thing is for you to decide.
Free market applies to every market participant equally. Your privilege is the counterparties obligation. Do you believe other market participants should be forced to buy your stock while the stock is obviously crashing just so you can get a favorable outcome?
And because you seem to be clouded by little man nerdrage: The stock market doesn't temporarily shut trading down to keep smalltime hobby gamblers out. They do this to prevent institutional investors from unloading in a hurry which would send macro signals that may signal that one market participant knows more than the others ("insider trading") which would then kick off an avalanche of tag-alongs who believe they have to sell as well, eventually moving the needle on the entire economy which would then cost the suckers who you are so desperately fighting for to lose their jobs. do you want that? good.
Google black friday if you want to know why. it is not done to sucker 2k live savings gamblers out of their money.
A free market creates all kinds of poor outcomes for example.
Me:Do you think that American consumers should have to buy their lifesaving drugs at a few thousand percent markup from a company that manipulated the FDA in order to obtain a monopoly on a 100 year old drug?
http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/10/heres-why-your-a...
Wall Street: Yes, free market.
Later that day...
Me: This stock is falling I want to sell.
Wall Street: Nope. Market protections kicked in you see.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_12?url=search-alia...
They use the same SOC, camera sensors. There are tons of HD Videos comparison reviews on Youtube.
Anyway, I got one of the clone after study the youtube video of the output for $50+ to put on my kid's model airplane. It works great. He crashed the airplane a lot. With only $50, I feel better.
It sounded like a cool place to work but I was a bit worried about their next 2-3 years.
The reason I didn't buy is I realized how much they are screwing people by charging crazy prices for essential add-ons. $xx for a basic mount (a piece of plastic), $xx for a bolt to connect to the mount, $xx for a case, $xx for a charging kit, and so on and so on. You thought you were buying a $400 gadget but suddenly your cart total is 2x that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAYgVvbXkLU
I made my own helmet mount for the Yi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3w-twe4seQ
A Mobius ActionCam can do 1080p30 or 720p60 at $75 and it's even smaller - about the size of a matchbox, or keychain dongle. I use it on mini-quadcopters; my son put it on a model rocket. It still works. :)
The app is a bit clunky, but the camera is spectacular value compared to the GoPros near the price bracket.
OTOH, if I bought what I really liked, I would've bought HTC and stagnated. The Re action camera is an excellent value and gets the experience right.
https://www.amazon.com/One-Up-Wall-Street-Already/dp/0743200...
(Why didn't they use a standard charging cable...)
http://xiaomi-mi.com/mi-smart-home/xiaomi-mi-smart-socket-pl...
I was in the market for a 4K action camera and ended up buying the Yi 4K because the GoPro model only offered interpolated 4K, while the Yi offers full 30FPS 4K.
I won't say the Yi is perfect. The Xiaomi app stopped connecting to the camera after an update (and hasn't connected successfully since), and early firmwares had issues with 4K recording randomly stopping.
But they've since fixed nearly all the stability issues with subsequent firmware releases.
Overall the camera is loads better than anything that GoPro had on the market at the time, and the camera only cost me $250 with accessories (waterproof case, spare battery), plus $70 to DHL for customs and duties.
I'm not a Xiaomi shill, I'm just very pleased with the product I bought.
but it's so well made, and it's always in the case (so I can put it on a mount) that ot still Looks feels brand new. I bet it will last me 5 more years
find out maybe works with soda water (red bull) but ppl don't take the $100 overprice hit on commodity camera just for brand feeling...
how many wingsuit enthusiast are there anyways ?!?
Not talking about other energy drinks. Korea has Hot 6ix, which is way cheaper and goes for the Red Bull taste.
Unless you are a total GoPro fan, there's no reason you would buy the newly released products.
You are right, a gimbal is a very smart addition. Put it on the backpack for skiiing or on a bike to record smooth rides.
My biggest problem however is the lack of "intelligent" flying with GoPro's drone. Most people overestimate their flying skills. It's very easy to have a collision, loose your done. It's also difficult to do subject tracking. Many find themselves with a broken drone after just a week of use. On the other hand, the Mavic Pro has their most advanced visualisation technology + sensors to make your job easy.
If you are confident with the GoPro drone, I would recommend purchasing it from a store with a liberal return/exchange policy. Try it for one week and record a few videos. And then compare with the mavic pro
Hello: not selling more stuff is A GOOD THING! It means your last generation was really good (well, if people are still using it and not buying another one). It means you can lower factory worker numbers and pay them more.
So a company that makes shitty products you have to refresh is going to do _better_. This cuts to the core of the entire economy of growth and economy of scale problems with our current economy. There needs to be a way to reward companies for making good products that last forever instead of them having to pump out crappy products every two years to stay afloat. (I'm looking at you Pebble Time Round!)
A large component of stock price is the expectation of profits for share holders in the future. If those expectations change, and the stock price plummets, it's not necessarily good or bad in the sense of a product being good or bad, or a company being good or bad.
Not all trading halts involve limit-down circuit breakers or short-sale restrictions.
A privately held company that has relatively flat YoY sales, but is at least able to raise prices to match cost of living increases would be "good" in many cases (depends on the investor expectations, again).
If you're looking for mounts, stick the standard mount on your helmet or use a 'wraparound' mount on the handlebars. (Get one of these)[https://www.amazon.com/Black-Common-Outdoor-Sports-Session/d...] You get a ton of accessories for cheap.
I believe GoPro cameras are manufactured in China.
It's not hard to make money in a bull market. Getting out before it turns sour is the trick.
Trading individual stocks as a retail investor is a sucker's game.