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Comment by msane | Hacker News Reader

I looked at PC laptops recently for a linux project machine. You're going to be very disappointed in the build quality if you're coming from Apple. They are just-OK, and every little detail is worse.

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This is the biggest thing that keeps me from switching. I'd happily swap to some other brand and run Linux, but every time I touch a non-Apple laptop it feels cheap, loose, clunky, plasticy, and just...bad.

The Chromebook Pixel is the only laptop I've had that matches Apple build quality. It can also run Linux and ChromeOS synchronously on the same kernel, which leads to a really great user experience.

The Surface Book I'm on now is very close, but the trackpad isn't quite as good. The Pixel trackpad was, honest to god, better than on a MacBook pro.

Agreed. The pixel 2015 is my main computer and now with mailine support (since 4.8) it's fairly easy to run linux. I'm using ubuntu stretch and it works great.

Did you try the Dell XPS 13?

The 2015 model (non-touch) has been my daily driver for a few months, and I prefer the feel of it over current MacBook Pros. The palm rests are slightly soft/rubbery in a nice way, but they are fingerprint magnets.

If you look around you can find it for $600 (refurb).

The Dell appears to be more likely to survive getting wet than Apple's laptops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8211HNs4eY

So... for 1/2 the price you can get a machine that you might like better than a MBP.

i wanted to love the XPS sooo much. they have a great linux team and it's damn near perfect were it not for two glaring flaws (imo):

1 - the webcam. what the hell? it's on the bottom right of the screen. if you videoconference often this will drive you insane -- the angle is so bad it borders on being useless

2 - the trackpad. (obv nothing matches apple here), but the xps in particular sucks (and oddly is not mentioned in any reviews i saw). for programmers, having the cursor randomly move while typing is just not acceptable.. from what I read the hardware was picking up noise from somewhere else in the system, causing jumps in the cursor. the latest drivers filter this noise in software, but this lead to increased latency. end result is weak. sold the machine :(

The webcam location is ridiculous. I had a coworker who had an XPS and whenever we were video conferencing he had to avoid all typing as his hands would occult his face.

They're also no longer manufacturing the Chromebook Pixel / Chromebook Pixel 2.

Disclaimer: I work at Google, but not on Chrome / Chromebook.

Just curious what laptop do you use for work and what OS (Linux/Mac)?

You mean via crouton? How do you deal with the issue that silent updates to the chrome-os can screw up the linux?

You can also completely replace Chrome OS with Linux. Works great.

Tempting, but then you loose the chance to run Android Apps or run Netflix. And I hear drivers may be an issue, at least on ARM chromebooks.

Panasonic Toughbooks have superior build quality compared to Apple. I also love that mine has a hardware on/off wireless switch, plus a removable battery and hard drive and a 3 foot drop rating. Runs Arch like a dream.

And if you're willing to spend the big bucks, Panasonic offers some pretty rad premium options like 1000 Nit daylight readable display, built-in GPS and 4G wireless.

If you're on a budget, look for used models on Ebay that are being dumped for cheap after a corporate lease runs out.

Source: have owned both brands for many years

Those things are quite sexy, problem is that even the 13" version seems to weigh over 8 pounds!

Look at the CF-54, CF-53 or CF-C2 models.

I'd say Dell's business laptops, their XPS line, higher end thinkpads, Sony's VAIO Z series, etc are all pretty good.

plasticy, Ye Gods, So much Koolaid:

This article isn't comparing Macbook Pros with cheap plastic tat. HP, Lenovo, Dell, whoever, have nice high-end stuff. If you're a developer and you're not aware of that you must be living in a bubble.

For example, Current Dell XPS 13" (9360) w/ so-called InfinityEdge (bezel-less) display, either 1080p or QHD+ version:

   Color Options
   - Silver or Rose Gold

   Exterior Chassis Materials
   - CNC machined aluminum in Silver or Rose Gold
   - Edge-to-edge Corning® Gorilla® Glass NBT™ on touch displays
   - Carbon fiber composite palm rest with soft touch paint

   Keyboard
   - Full size, backlit chiclet keyboard; 1.3mm travel

   Mouse
   - Precision touchpad, seamless glass integrated button

I beg to differ, Razer hardware far exceeds the MBP (IMO) and matches (and somewhat exceeds) build quality:

http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade

Here is a thread about running Linux on the new blade:

https://insider.razerzone.com/index.php?threads/linux-on-a-n...

Also, there is always the Dell Sputnik program and I find the XPS 13/15 series to be comparable to Apple build quality these days:

http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...

Now if you want first class support for Linux (at least Ubuntu) and don't mind some build quality compromises, System76 has been a great experience for me:

https://system76.com/

TL;DR: The options for Linux laptops have never been better.

According to this review at least, the Razer Blade has half the battery life of a high-end MBP:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2476486,00.asp

That review is from May, so it's for last year's version. This years has an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 graphics card.

Although I expect the battery life to still not be up to the MBP level.

As ShaneOG pointed out, the new ones have a 1060 which should have better power consumption profiles.

But also worth noting is battery life is going to depend on what your task load is. For my typical use case, I end up usually hammering on CPU for dev work so my battery life on my MBP isn't actually as impressive as it is for light use (web browsing/typical user workload). So for me, the potential battery life gap between a Blade and 13" MBP is going to be fairly close.

Also worth noting, the Dell Sputnik I have is comparable to a MBP and it is running Ubuntu natively (!!!). Throw an slim external battery in (Dell sells one) and it seems to exceed my MBP battery life (although I haven't really rigorously tested it).

Finally, drop the screen resolution down to the 1080 version and you will get better battery life. Not appropriate for everyone, but it's a compromise you can choose to make if it works for you :)

I've held most of these in my hands and typed in apps. They are not even from the same universe as the Macbook 12".

Razor? Dell? Not even close when they are in the hand.

Well, I was comparing it to the MBP and this is an area of personal preference but I like/dislike various things about each.

Razer and Dell were very comparable to an MBP 13 for me. I would be happy to break down some comparisons for you (according to my personal experience/preference having owned all 3) but I would definitely agree the System76 is in a different build quality category...although (IMO) it makes up for it with its first-class hardware support.

Haven't owned or even used an MB 12", but I am surprised you like it so much, most things I read about it complain about the keyboard: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2yhemp...

Keyboard is also one of the most important things in a laptop for me personally...

To each their own, but I find the design of Razer machines to be a bit on the gaudy side. The Dells also don't look much better, although they at least lack the crazy green logo...

For me, I don't really care for appearances, but you can always Vinyl wrap the Razer if it bothers you:

https://dbrand.com/shop/razer-blade-14-2016-skins

(has the option of covering the logo)

To me the look of the Dell is comparable to the Mac, but again, you can skin it as well:

https://dbrand.com/shop/dell-xps-13-skins

I don't understand why a hardware manufacturer hasn't done to Linux what Apple did to FreeBSD and sell a quality laptop with tightly integrated hardware and Linux software. I just have a feeling that if I switched to a "Linux-ready" laptop from Lenovo or Dell I'd still be fighting with the wireless config and external display compatibility like I've always had to.

People are not so obsessed with quality and design and Steve Jobs was. We need a company who produces laptops that come close to Apple's quality bar.

I have this fantasy of starting a company dedicated to building Linux laptops for developers. Great displays and keyboard, generous ports, beefy specs, with a willingness to trade off size and weight.

I think it hasn't happened yet because it's probably economically not viable.

Isn't that along the lines of System 76 [1]? I haven't tried any of their machines, and they aren't exactly trying to compete with Apple, but they are Linux first.

[1] https://system76.com/

It appears that they are essentially a reseller of Clevo / Sager laptops, though. On the plus side you are guaranteed good support for the hardware using most distros, the build quality looks to be a bit below, say, a Dell XPS, though.

A lot of what's nice about Macbooks is in the software. The battery life is at least partly due to software, making good/attractive use of the display, handling sleep states well, multimonitor support, and so on. You'd have to put thousands (tens of thousands?) of (expensive-)person-hours into Linux to close that gap enough to matter.

It has happened though. https://system76.com/ I don't know why any developer in 2016 would buy an apple machine honestly. What little software perks they offer aren't really applicable to coding (over what's available in linux and increasingly windows with the linux subsystem), and any productivity requires an external monitor, real keyboard, etc so a lot of the nice build quality features are wasted too.

One problem is that (apart from devs) Linux only supports "typical" computer users, and then only OK. For example a lot of Apple users are multimedia professionals and Linux multimedia apps are simply not in the same league. The same can be said for lots of other categories of apps. Could an accountant switch to Linux without Intuit compatibility? Etc.

I think we underestimate how hard it is to polish hardware to Apple-level tolerances.

Especially because:

1. It takes a lot of capital to even attempt.

2. The traditional players in position to do so do not have it in their DNA (Dell, HP, et all).

I'm not expecting a unibody design and flawless color gamut or anything. Even basic OS functionality like sleep/wake, (dis)connecting external displays, trackpad responsiveness, etc., is vastly inferior on Linux laptops.

Well, depends how well you know Linux. My old Asus Zenbook has been a great servant, running the same Arch installation since I bought the laptop. Superb fonts, suspend/hibernate etc works, Intel and Nvidia GPUs both work, WiFi connects automatically and I can manage the networks from Roxterm, I still have a pretty good battery life and nothing beats my Xmonad setup.

And yes, the build quality doesn't match Apple. But actually I really don't care. Over three years of daily usage already and I can't really complain. Next thing I'm checking the Razer, Dell and Lenovo selection, but it seems I just don't need an update yet.

I'm a developer, I do hard stuff for work. Setting up a Linux distro is peanuts compared to the issues I face daily. And no, OSX is far from a usable operation system for my usage.

If you like Apple's hardware, why don't you just run GNU/Linux on it?

Lots of people seem to be complaining about the lack of a RAM upgrade to more than 16gb, and lack of an nvidia GPU for cuda.

It's funny how everyone was complaining about 16 Gb being the limit for Macs, but the person in the article put 16 Gb in requirements.

The author of the article wants a 13" laptop, and the 16GB option is only for 15" Macbook Pros.

No, 13" MBPs can get 16GB too.

Ah, you're right. They don't show the option until you've added it to your cart though, unlike the 15" model.

Not necessarily incompatible positions. It's perfectly possible you might want 16gb today but 32/64/etc. later down the line. In fact, based on apple's ram prices, this is the advisable approach, providing you can get a machine which actually CAN have the ram upgraded.

HP Spectre 13 (v021nr) has quite good build quality in my opinion, coming from previously using only Macbook Pros.

It has 6th gen Intel i7, USB-C (one gen 1, two gen 2 which are also Thunderbolt 3), it was $1100, weighs 2.4 pounds. It's been the best Linux machine out of the gate I've had. Trackpad works, wireless works, the one glitch I'm running into right now starting with kernel 4.8 is suspend. https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185521

It got updated recently with 7th gen CPU, becme a little lighter, etc, review http://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-Spectre-x360-13-w023dx-Conve...

Nope, the x360 got updated. The 13 I have is not the x360, it's the lighter one with still 6th gen, just got it last month, firmware is mid August.

It got Kaby Lake and some other updates just recently.

This is exactly right.

The new macbook pro 13" without the touch strip is already in apple stores.

I would suggest you supplement whatever you read about these macbooks with an actual visit to the apple store, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

The color definition on those new screens is INSANE, it's still far better built than any pc I've tried this year (and I tried zillions while considering one last pc before switching), and the keyboard is surprisingly good.

If you get one of these pc's, get ready for a mechanical touchpad that you WILL notice, a flattened aspect that ratio that is not ideal for document editing, and screen quality that just doesn't quite match up despite pixel counts.

Anyway, I've had a rough time switching from windows to mac this year, find it ironic that now everyone is talking about jumping ship the other way.

Edit: why exactly the downvotes?

You seem to have slightly misunderstood the conversation.

i've heard that the Asus Zenbook has very similar build quality. I've been looking for one locally to show-room for a bit to confirm that, but haven't had a chance to confirm it.

If they refresh that line or the Dell XPSs with an Nvidia pascal GTX 10xx, then I'll probably go ahead and get one. I figure that if I'm jumping back over to the Windows side as my daily driver, I might as well hold out for decent gaming GPU in a reasonably lightweight platform.

While the Zenbook looks great and has great hardware specs, I can't rightfully recommend it to anyone. A list of complaints:

-Loud fan. With all of its (considerable) horsepower, it can get quite hot. Even when simply booting up or writing a document in Word, the fan is on almost constantly and very audible.

-Keyboard quality. The coating on the keyboard has already started peeling off after 1.5 years of mild use.

-Big and heavy power brick that gets extremely hot.

-Random buggy hardware issues. The webcam stopped working after updating Windows, and I haven't been able to get it working since. The trackpad is HORRIBLE and buggy. Maybe it's because Apple's trackpad has spoiled me, but going from apple's trackpad to Asus' was probably the single most frustrating thing. It's terribly inaccurate, doesn't understand multi-gestures, and worst of all, there's this weird cursor jitter when you touch the trackpad without being electrically grounded. I'm serious. If I want to accurately place my cursor over something, I have to be touching the laptop's aluminum chassis or else the cursor starts spasming.

The overall build quality just cannot be compared to Apple's. Even the mini Sub Woofer my Zenbook came with started working intermittently and I discovered that the port it connected to came loose for no apparent reason. The same thing happened to one of the USB ports.

Oh, and this was all after going throught he trouble of RMA'ing the first one for harddrive failure.

For a higher end, premium priced laptop I really expected better.

I've tried to move to HP or Lenovo machines with Ubuntu, the scaling is very immature.

What is worse? How is it worse? And what evidence do you have that its systemic?

I've had one MB break the first month and one last a year before I sold it. My current Sony VAIO (VPCZ21) is running like a champ since 2011 and the build quality is stellar.

checkout the Lenovo x220 or x230. there's an i7 version, with thunderbolt.

Da faq you talking about? The ThinkPad Yoga line ++ Unbuntu is computing perfection. I'd get the X260 as a desktop replacement if I could afford it maxed out.

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