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> spies on you

Any reason to believe MS does this more than Apple does?

> their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level.

MS making their own hardware looks to be at least partially a response to that.

> - build quality machines that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors that it shifts the arithmetic when comparing the YoY cost of their wares to their competition

Again, this really isn't the advantage it used to be. MS first-party surface hardware is really high quality.

> But let's all calm down. Apple is still a cut above. USB-C connected peripherals will likely storm into the marketplace. You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life.

Apple has long offered an excellent direct user experience but extremely poor interoperability. You're still not allowed to run their OS in a VM or on third-party hardware, nor develop programs for Apple systems on non-Apple systems - and if you want a different configuration than the very limited choice Apple gives you, tough. There's plenty wrong with MS but I feel like they're at least somewhat open to alternatives if I don't like their way of doing it. Apple is very much "our way or the highway", which is not where I want my software to be.

It wasn't always the case, but you are now allowed to run macOS in a VM on Apple hardware.

Source on this? A quick google search didn't turn up anything

https://www.vmware.com/content/dam/digitalmarketing/vmware/e...

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/20965/does-apples-...

It's right there in the macOS EULA http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOS1012.pdf, Section 2.B.(iii):

"[...] you are granted a limited, non- transferable, non-exclusive license: [...] (iii) to install, use and run up to two (2) additional copies or instances of the Apple Software within virtual operating system environments on each Mac Computer you own or control that is already running the Apple Software, for purposes of: (a) software development; (b) testing during software development; (c) using macOS Server; or (d) personal, non-commercial use."

This section was first introduced in the EULA for OS X 10.7.

Look in the marketing for any of the VM vendors (I installed 10.12 in Parallels a couple of days ago)

So you still need their HW, not that useful.

> > spies on you > Any reason to believe MS does this more than Apple does?

I can't speak for Windows since I don't use them, but I do run LittleSnitch on Mac (network monitor) and I don't really see requests to Apple I would not expect to see.

Of course that doesn't mean they couldn't send collected data with other information they sent, but it doesn't seem likely (a lot of effort for something almost nobody cares and optics are much worse when/if it would come out).

Or is it? I use LittleSnitch too, and my Mac does A LOT of shady requests.

Every time I use Spotlight! Everytime I log in.. heck, even the keyboard service has to make internet requests!

Here you go:

  # Privacy: don’t send search queries to Apple
  # Safari
  defaults write com.apple.Safari UniversalSearchEnabled -bool false
  defaults write com.apple.Safari SuppressSearchSuggestions -bool true
  # Spotlight
  defaults write com.apple.spotlight orderedItems -array \
     '{"enabled" = 0;"name" = "MENU_WEBSEARCH";}' \
     '{"enabled" = 0;"name" = "MENU_SPOTLIGHT_SUGGESTIONS";}'

Also turn off Dictation in System Preferences > Keyboard > Dictation. I'm guessing you're smart enough to already have disabled Siri.

Voila! More privacy.

The fact that such hacks (which really aren't known beyonds developers) are necessary makes a very loud statement.

No, the few things these switches are toggling are nanoscopic in the grand scheme of things, and the data sent are only that necessary to implement an ostensibly useful feature.

Compare to the shit that Windows 10 collects, and the comparison isn't even remotely close.

They're not necessary at all. They're available, but really you shouldn't care about them unless you're very paranoid. These settings are basically the equivalent of telling your computer "I don't ever want to search the internet unless I manually navigate to google.com (or whatever) and do the search there". Because that's what you're doing, you're disabling the internet-enabled search functionality.

You can go to group policy (gpedit.exe) in Windows 10 pro to switch off most of privacy related settings. There is a good description written for every settings.

> You're still not allowed to run their OS in a VM

Yes you are, for several years now(I realize this was not always the case). You can find the explicit allowances for doing so by searching for "virtual machine" in their license:

http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOS1012.pdf

So, based on what I just skimmed by searching for "virtual", it's exactly what I remembered: You're allowed to run a VM of OS/X only on licensed OS/X?

Amusingly, this is the method that most hackintosh-style OS/X VMs work - by taking the config from a OS/X version of VMWare Workstation and adding it to the Windows / Linux install.

However, that's no longer licensed (and to me, the main advantage of running a VM here is to be able to test stuff in OS/X when I don't otherwise have access - i.e. on a Windows machine).

> that seemingly never wanes in performance while provide enduring support that make them last so much longer than their competitors

Dunno, I bought a top-of-the-line rMBP in late 2013, and the anti-glare coating has come off from the screen -- Apple didn't honor the warranty (this is Europe). I sold it because it was crap to use, then some months later Apple confirmed that it is a widespread problem and they will replace the screens for free. (Except in e.g. Hungary where the official dealers didn't give a crap, because the 1 year warranty was over.) Also it had problems with overheating and wifi.

On the other hand, I had a bulky, unsexy HP Zbook G2 that had a GPU problem after 2 years. HP guy came to my house with a new GPU, disassembled the laptop on my desk, put the new GPU in, run some diags and left. In 24 hrs. I sold this one and it is in service at one of my friends, rendering in 3DSMAX 12 hours a day.

Anecdata, I know.

ZBooks are good machines. We run HP Zbook 17s (have a G2, but about to get a G3). Battery life is horrible on the 17" model, but running lots of VMs and other demanding tasks is a breeze.

64GB DDR4 ECC, Quad core Xeon E3-1575M processor, NVIDIA Quadro M5000 (really overkill for my work, but fun to have), etc. It's a real professional machine. Just can't be touched by anything Apple makes.

I had a MBP a few years ago. I installed the Boot Camp beta. When it went out of beta it locked up with no ability to change the configuration or installed OSs. The solution was to upgrade (30$) to the latest version of OS X. Which meant I lost all the software that came with the laptop since I didn't want to pay for it again.

I had an iPod touch. When I was using it on a certain network it couldn't hit the NTP servers. This set the time to 1970, and I couldn't change it manually due to some integer overflow bug. Trying to scroll those wheel things to the current date, it would start skipping 30 years forward and backward. The time not being set meant I couldn't use the app store, upgrade the OS, etc., rendering the device useless.

I'll stick to Linux and Android. At least I can fix those when they break.

I own a perfectly fine iPad 1 and can't use apps for it anymore because Apple said so. This really irks me, at least let me install the latest usable version.

The iPad is still working nicely, but the behavior by Apple just sucks.

If you first add the app to iTunes for PC/Mac, then it lets you install the last compatible version of the app on your iDevice!

wow, thanks. I'll try this.

It's absurd they don't say that anywhere, but it works :)

You can: https://support.apple.com/en-is/HT201377

Running Windows :(

Follow the iOS instructions. You can install older versions of apps directly from the App Store on your iPad by going into the Purchased section. It will prompt you to install the last compatible version.

If you're trying to do this with an app you haven't previously purchased, you'll need to purchase it directly on iTunes, and then it will show up in the Purchased section of the App Store on the device.

> When I was using it on a certain network it couldn't hit the NTP servers. This set the time to 1970

This doesn't make sense. No device resets its time to 1970 when it can't hit NTP servers.

I took a video - https://youtu.be/GAFh8j8pCaQ?t=21s

That video is showing someone (presumably you?) scrolling through the date picker. It does not appear to provide any evidence to support your claim that the device resets to 1970 when it cannot get a response from NTP. As I said before, literally no device would ever behave that way, because not being able to get an NTP response is not a particularly uncommon occurrence (it happens any time you don't have internet), so any device that reset to 1970 would be extremely obviously broken as literally every single person would hit this many many many times.

> You'll probably get the new MBP. If you really can't handle the dongles, get the 2nd to latest version. It'll last you more than 4 years easily. If you're the type to get a new model every year: either you work very closely with the MBP hardware itself or you need to re-examine your life.

I did try my hand at an apple machine for awhile. Bought one of their "high quality" laptops. Used it until multiple keys broke - the < key angled sideways when part of the hinge broke, and the capslock key literally snapped in half. There are less extreme measures to discourage me from macro and template metaprogramming...! I've never had a laptop break that fast before or since. They wanted me to leave the entire laptop with them for weeks to replace the keyboard, IIRC, so I passed and just used the exposed membrane for awhile.

Since then, I've turned down a free MBP at work. I'd exhaust the max memory linking. I want a sane, tactile keyboard. They didn't splurge enough on the SSD to fit my projects on. The display isn't even 4K. I'll be forced to dual boot if I try to use it as a laptop. It's overpriced - and while an overpriced iPhone dongle for iOS development may be necessary, I'd much rather have a Mac mini and have the difference spent on more 4K monitors, more RAM, more SSD space, and more cores for my PC build.

I've finally gotten around to retiring my 2009 PC build this year. Admittedly, I replaced the motherboard once when it failed, and upgraded the RAM, but that's still doing better than a dead-out-of-the-gate MBP I'm afraid. Which is a shame - I'd like more competition for my money.

I bought the first 13" Macbook Pro with the Thunderbolt port, expecting the whole world to switch to Thunderbolt in a couple of years. It was predicted that there would be Macbooks in the future with only Thunderbolt ports, as it could connect to everything.

Guess what, that didn't happen. It became a high-end niche market. Not saying that that's where USB-C will be going but I have a bad feeling about this.

There's a big difference between thunderbolt and thunderbolt 3/usb c. The former was proprietary by Apple/Intel, and very expensive, so no one else added it to their machines, and onlu very high end accessories included it. Usb C is the new standard that is already being adopted by most manufacturers, so I'm very confident it will spread quite fast. Not saying that launching a professional laptop in 2016 with just 4 usb c ports was a good idea though, but I guess they're really pushing for the standard to be adopted as quick as possible.

Thunderbolt 3 is still insanely expensive. The Akitio Thunder2 PCIe Box is $229.00, the Thunder3 Pcie Expansion Box is $299 and if you wanted to do a go-around by buying a converter, that's also $70 -- the StarTech.com Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter is $73.99. By economies of scale TB3 ought to be cheaper but it is not. Other docks are even more expensive, the Powercolor Devil Box is $375 and the Razer Core is $399 but only if you buy a Razer laptop otherwise $499. To compare, an M.2 to PCIe DIY solution from a noname company without warranty is roughly $100 so the $229 price is pretty OK. The TB3 box, however, needs to drop to half price and then we are talking.

And Thunderbolt of yore was not Apple only by far, HP, Dell, Lenovo all had mobile workstations sporting it. Heck, the Thinkpad T430s had it. Of course, it's all different now, practically all $1000 and over laptops have TB3.

USB-C has a better chance, being effectively USB under the hood with a better connector. There were zero thunderbolt phones. I'm typing this comment on a Pixel with a C port.

90%+ released phones will have USB-C in late 2017 I wager. The alternative mode stuff may take a year or two to sort out though

No, USB-C will be standard. What happened to Thunderbolt is what will happen to Lightning. USB-C is here to stay, and they should've put it in iPhone 7 as well.

Why should they have put it on the iPhone? People keep saying that, but nobody's actually given a good reason. It's not like you're going to be plugging any of your Mac peripherals into your iPhone. The only actual reason anyone seems to have is "so you can plug your iPhone into an Android charger", but that doesn't seem very compelling to me (do I even want to trust an Android charger?).

USB-C is supplanting microUSB ports just about everywhere, just like microUSB supplanted miniUSB. I don't understand why the iPhone isn't using it other than to allow people to use their iPhone 6 peripherals.

Lightning was first, there is a vibrant ecosystem in place around Made For iPhone accessories that use Lightning that a lot of existing iPhone users already own, the Lightning port and connector are smaller than USB-C which is probably useful in a few places (I saw someone suggest somewhere that the Apple Pencil wouldn't even be able to fit a USB-C connector), someone else also said that Lightning was designed to support the weight of the iPhone in a dock configuration but USB-C probably wasn't, etc. And there's not really any benefit to switching to USB-C besides being able to re-use Android chargers, which isn't something that Apple or most of their customers particularly cares about.

Do I want one cable to charge my old macbook, one for my iphone 7 work phone, and one for my private pixel xl, or do i want one cable that can charge them all (the new macbook and the android phone now works)? or maybe 2 for a spare? And speaking of spares, I always have one extra at home to replace any that get broken. Having the same standard everywhere means I need only one spare. Instead of one spare per type.

> do I even want to trust an Android charger?

I don't know what this means. I'm reading this as "Do I even trust a USB-C charger", which you can safely do if you buy something that adheres to the standards. A lot of chinese knock-offs don't, but the point of standards is that you shouldn't have to care.

I bought the first Macbook with a thunderbolt port 5 years ago and I bought my first Thunderbolt peripheral 2 months ago.

In those 5 years I've never seen anybody using Thunderbolt for anything other than connecting a monitor.

I use the thunderbolt to Ethernet adaptor sometimes. That's about it.

> spies on you

Enough with this rubbish claim, please. Everyone I've asked to actually substantiate it resorts to angry handwaving. How about you?

The telemetry collects crash and feature usage data, the same as macOS and all of the phone OSes does. You want that on because it tells MS where the bugs are. If you turn it off, you don't get to complain about bugs because MS has no idea you encountered any.

I have no auto-telemetry activated in my OS. I've also deactivated it in my browser, Firefox, through the about:config settings. However, I am free to file a bug-report anytime I wish, as is anyone else. Referring to concerns about the contents of this telemetry as "rubbish" is every bit as potentially unreasonable as claiming to know precisely what it contains; unless you do – in which case you might provide some strong citations verifying the telemetry contents exclusively as "crash and feature usage data", and to be extra helpful, clear definitions of "feature usage" in that particular context.

AIUI, Microsoft collects a ton of data. Apple doesn't. Apple collects crashes and some fairly basic (very anonymized) usage data, but it also asks you up-front during installation/setup whether you want to enable this kind of reporting. But from what I keep seeing people say on the internet, it sounds like Windows is constantly reporting data home to Microsoft rather than just sending crashes/bugs and other basic info.

This is about Innovation and this is something Apple really never was good at even though people threw the phrase at Apple all the time.

"Instead, the company is tremendously iterative which is a fancy way of saying that they’re good at making steady, small improvements over time." http://time.com/3712678/apple-innovation/ from 3/2015

"Let's completely forget that Microsoft 'upgrades' your OS without your permission, spies on you, embeds ads into the Start Menu, and their OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level. In my opinion, these are actual reasons a company should completely fail and dissolve." - an google and apple don't do this?

The general argument is that Apple, because their profit margin is in the hardware, has no motive to collect and sell personal information to advertisers. And in line with that, Apple has focused on the security and privacy features of their stack.

Google is, for better or worse, still an advertising company. Selling you a phone isn't how they make money; getting you to send information about yourself to them (in order to provide more accurate ad targeting) is how they make money.

Microsoft is caught in a weird place. Historically they've been dependent on OEMs to buy Windows from them and preinstall it, and OEMs have had such low margins that they have to pre-load the hardware with a bunch of spyware/adware in order to turn a profit. Microsoft could kick this by taking greater ownership of the hardware side and adopting a more Apple-style approach, and the Surface line seems to be an attempt to do this, but they aren't there yet.

>.... getting you to send information about yourself to them (in order to provide more accurate ad targeting) is how they make money.

This is a common and generally accepted interpretation of Google that I conjecture contrary to. To restrict such an unprecedented glut of data solely to marketing would seem prohibitively wasteful. Access to intellectual property[1], psychology/social trends, biometrics[2], political, economic, and myriad otherwise private/personal details, etc., collectively and individually comprise a colossal repository useful for predicting, manipulating and understanding (in entirely novel ways) all these very subjects. From intel (e.g. gov) to legislation (e.g. ALEC), the implied applications are many. Perhaps ads are the primary ostensive means of income for Google presently, but opportunity elsewhere abounds. And maybe I've got it all wrong and marketing is the root directory of humanity.

1. Considerations: Exchange of unencrypted prospective patent data pre-patent; google edu domains; unclaimed conceptual material, etc.

2. Voice, face.

When was the last time you took a walk and came back to your Apple computer threatening to restart in 10 minutes to update itself? This happened to me several times in Windows 10 ever since the Anniversary update which removed the option to have windows merely notify the user to schedule a restart (even for the "Professional" edition -- https://gbatemp.net/threads/windows-10-anniversary-update-no...). Eventually I got tired of MS insisting it be in the driver's seat of my computer and switched to Linux. Fedora 24 works quite well and is fortunately quite adequate for my usual needs.

Just leave notepad open with some unsaved changes in it; it will lock it from rebooting

It will? My gaming PC regularly restarts to install updates no matter what software I have currently running.

This argument attempts to compare the two firms on the givens, and not the difference.

The fact is that these were criticisms before last week, and nothing about those has changed - the issue is that one firm released a product which was significantly better than the offerings made by the other firm.

Providing this kind of argument is moving the goal posts

Anonymised telemetry reports are not the same as being spied upon. Anyway, Apple has the same kind of thing in iOS and OS X.

Is there any official documentation of what exactly is reported? For instance, what does Windows send to domains like ad.doubleclick.net? It's rather curious that Microsoft builds such extraordinary defenses against the user interfering with telemetry like hardcoding certain DNS lookups and tricking the user into thinking that the hosts file actually works (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30676597-Complete-Win10-blo...).

There's this Technet article, which also tells you how to dial it down or disable it: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-gb/itpro/windows/manage/con...

I don't see the problem with ignoring the hosts file, if that is indeed what is happening. It's not really intended as a blocking mechanism.

Not to mention this article is based on a product targeted at a niche minority of users. Nothing with a 28" screen is the future of how non-artists use a computer. Microsoft is selling one just mainstream computer (the Surface Book), and despite being a fifth gen Surface device it launched with major firmware bugs that took months to resolve. Apple, unsurprisingly, is selling Macs about five times faster than Microsoft is selling Surface devices. It's selling iPads about 10-15 times faster. Not to mention Microsoft seems to have completely exited the phone market.

Maybe Microsoft needs less innovation and more bread and butter products for ordinary users.

Those macs, trace their history back to devices also targetted at this same niche of users, and after iteration lead to the macbooks you use today.

Your argument seems to come down to the idea that apple products are good investments. However, this isn't much use if they keep ignoring how their users use their computers. All I wanted was the same product line with 32 gigs of memory. Looks like I'll never get that computer. What's the point in investing heavily in a different computing future than you want?

Microsoft may not be any better on the software end of things, but at least they're doing interesting things with hardware, WITHOUT killing what works.

You'll get that computer in 2018 when the quad core intel chip that supports lpddr4 or whatever is out.

Do you honestly believe that the current macbook (note the 12" not the new pro) will not wanes in performance in the next 4 years as we have historically seen with the macbook air?

I ask because while my macbook air coming up to 3 years and feels almost like a brand new machine - the current 12" is actually slower than my air. Can i really expect that to have 4 years of solid performance updates on the macbook?

In that case should i expect my air to last me the next 4 years and do just well for a solid 8 years of great performance?

This seems a weird question. The Macbook being slower than your air doesn't mean that it won't be just as performant in 4 years, but no it won't be faster than a device that it isn't faster than now.

If the Macbook is fast enough for someone now, and their workload doesn't change, then yes, I'd expect it to be just fine for them in 4 years; just as the same can be said for the Air, or the others.

Thats kind of my point. Its been almost 4 years and apple hasn't made the devices (at the same price bracket) any more performant.

Will the software they make over the next 4 years stay at the same level of requirements and run just as smoothly as everything seems to run on my air after 3 years?

I am not sure that is the case looking at how the OS is moving and how they are treating performance.

No, the non-pro has very basic performance, because it is meant to be an entry level computer. Get one for your mum today, and she'll happily use it for 5+ years. Get a macbook pro for yourself, and the same thing should be the case.

As a fellow Air owner I feel exactly the same way. I like new toys but looking around between the macbooks and macbooks pro there's nothing I'd want to replace it with. To apple's credit the Air performs incredibly well and the only reason I looked into replacing it was because its 128gb SSD is a becoming a problem, so I'm using that as an excuse to upgrade into something newer and shiny but the only things I see that I'd want to replace it with are the surface book and the surface pro 4. I want to like the 12-inch macbook because of the form factor but I just don't want what in some ways is a noticeable downgrade.

If MS had that $650 discount on returning a macbook when buying their hardware in Europe, I'd have already jumped on it.

Not to invalidate your excuse, but if you need, you can probably upgrade your MBA's SSD. Installed an OWC Aura SSD in mine, it's is very straightforward.

I've personally had those OWC drives die on me four times now.

> OEMs like Lenovo will listen in on everything you do at the hardware level.

Are you talking about this[0] (which seems inconclusive), or something else? All other spying incidents I see from Lenovo are software-based.

[0] http://www.geek.com/chips/spy-agencies-shun-lenovo-finding-b...

Buy windows 10 pro and shut down auto-updates? I've opted out of basically everything except auto-update because I want to latest release. The possibility of shutting down auto update is probably the biggest sellpoint of Pro and Enterprise editions nowadays, together with encryption.

Windows 10 don't really spy on me more than Apple or Google, but for those who complain there is always Linux that is the only real true alternative to opting out of being spied upon.

I run Windows 10 Pro and love it auto-updates is wonderful as a programmer also because I know people will get the latest version automatically.

Once a company is on the defensive like this, you know its actually dead in the water. The point still stands, the innovation is with M$ for now. Maybe Apple will come back with something years from now - maybe not.

Thank you for the comment. It's rare to find reasonable responses in AAPL vs MSFT discussions lately.

Preach!

Finally some sanity! The temper tantrum because it's not ticked everyones boxes was less surprising on Reddit, but I expected a little less drama here.