Sonder E-Ink Keyboard
sonderdesign.com
sonderdesign.com
Just what we need. Computer peripherals slaved to some external cloud server. You have a computer right there, able to store stuff. Run programs, even. You don't want to be tied to some here-today, gone-tomorrow service. Also, how do you know it isn't sending your keystrokes somewhere?
An API would make more sense. Programs which change the meaning of keys as you change mode should be able to change the keyboard. Think Blender, with 10 pages of keyboard cheat sheet.
Also, it says "Pre-order. Available Q4 2016." Well, it's Q4 2016. Is it shipping?
How do they send power over "braided fiber"? Whatever that is.
As a hardware device, it may be perfectly reasonable. Ship the product, get some popular programs with too many function keys to talk to it, get the price below $100, lose the ego trip over how cool you are, and dump the "cloud" thing.
Screw having to create unnecessary accounts (or signing into services I don't absolutely need).
In regards to the fibre cabre, that's PR speak for a non cheap cable. Thanks again for the feedback; it's great to hear from other engineers etc.
Get it manufactured in China, Do some business investment magic, economy of scale things. I dont know :D It is really cool keyboard, but price is above of what most people are willing to pay for a keyboard.
By the way, another use-case is using it with games with complex controls like Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, Kerbal Space Program.
First, they're partnered with Foxconn so it's very likely they're made in China.
Second, you can't just "do economies of scale" without a slightly pricier v1 of the product; hey're not going to be selling hundreds of thousands of them.
Third, many are more than willing to to pay over that amount for keyboard.
Just take a look at custom mechanical keyboards (Ergodox, Poker 3, k95 if you're looking at more mainstream ones) if you want a glimpse at the high-end keyboard market. I'm guessing that the "patented crisp, responsive key mechanism" are not mechanical switches, but people do (as do I) pay well over that for keyboards they're interested in.
The MOQ is 300k units; we're at economies of scale but it's still a new technology. You're right on the made in China, Suzhou, Shenzhen etc. Bingo also on the third point.
The syncing random data across computers thing is a solved problem. There are different solutions that meet different needs - some people may have their data stored on a company file server, some like to use Dropbox, some are happy with iCloud Drive, some use OwnCloud or Box.net or any number of other things.
Instead of developing cloud services to sync stuff, manufacturers should just let you pick where to save the settings and let some other sync mechanism do the job.
However, if it was a Model M chassis, sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys, E-Ink, and a modern selection of media keys and volume I'd probably buy one. Regardless of how silly the cost.
Then I'd still not look at it until doing something in Photoshop or some other program I use only rarely!
Edit: It also strikes me as odd not to E-Ink the Command and Option keys so you can use it on Windows too.
And rearranging some of other keys would be great.
And don't get me started on games, oooooh, how often to I buy a new game and forget what 'm' does? Knife? Grenade? Pickaxe?
(Or if you’re stuck on a standard keyboard, I recommend you try to use the opposite-hand shift key.)
I did it to get control on the caps-lock key, but never conditioned myself to use it.
If you feel even the slightest bit of pain, that's your body signalling to you 'hey buddy, don't do this'. I was suffering from emacs pinky to the point where my hands were aching hours after leaving my desk. On weekends, my tennis racket grip was significantly weaker and form poorer. Mapping Ctrl to caps, right shift to Esc, and buying a $30 MS Ergonomic keyboard solved my issues. My friends who have had worse issues spent the $300 on a Kinesis (which I had up until then considered to be snake oil) but it seems to have solved their issues entirely (and for $300 it's definitely a cheap investment compared to the opportunity cost of the time invested in physical therapy).
If you're on Linux, you can at the os-level make modal changes. I made the right-alt key move into a different mode, so I effectively get an entirely separate key-mapping when that key is depressed. (E.g., hjkl for me is OS-wide, and sdfg lets me move the cursor. nb. Were I to make this decision again, I'd use Caps as my primary modifier, [ as my secondary, effectively giving me four full keyboard maps. Probably overkill but if I were using something like SolidWorks or Illustrator where having both keyboard and mouse access available often, I'd be experimenting with a setup like that -- keeping my right hand always on the mouse, and left for keyboard shortcuts -- biasing all of the shortcut keys to the left-hand region of the keyboard.)
ErgoDox implements a similar system but on the micro-controller level so you don't even have to putz with modifiers and it's cross OS. I don't have one but I would have bought one if I used a desktop more often, simply due to the trackball-feature (effectively letting one use a mouse without leaving the home-row -- a 'must-have' for me).
One other thing is WorkRave which reminds me to take breaks. This is helpful for my hands, but has been frustrating for getting into the groove of programming.
The only thing vertical mice reduce is wrist movement.
Very true on games. I'd use for this too, and learning. Like someone else mentions a reactive keyboard would have been great when I was learning vi!
Carpal tunnel syndrome is a specific condition where your carpal tunnel constricts around a nerve. RSI is the umbrella term for these types of injuries.
An appropriate typo, because with this keyboard you can probably map the happy-poo emoji to your shit_key.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard...
The whole "cloud keyboard" thing does sound gimmicky, I just don't think it's reasonable to paint their entire product line that way.
I don't see a use case for this though, I rarely look at my keyboard.
Because usually there's absolutely no reason to do so, because it's static and you you have the layout in muscle memory.
- Because staring at your keyboard isn't great for your neck.
- Because when I'm typing I'm outputting my brain into the computer, I'm not trying to take in input.
- BECAUSE YOUR HANDS BLOCK THE KEYBOARD.
The mouse is more of a follow and enter type of interface, as is touch. Keyboards are a high ply (eg 102 keys + shifts) with chords and chains, in that a you generally hit a series of keys to do something (typing) and not a single button. So massively more options than the 12 they can get up there on the top row. So memorization wins out in my mind here.
Where I think this would help is when you're learning new things and have to move your hand to figure it out. Like say a new character in dota... but again the monitor is better.
This keyboard looks cool tho. Tho wish they'd put some non-mac pics up.
If I'm familiar with an application, I don't look at the keyboard. If I'm VERY familiar with an application, I don't even recall commands through their mnemonic, but through muscle memory.
For example, I've just switched to spacemacs from vim, and one of the first commands to learn is Ctrl+G, which is to exit from any menu. "Escape from menu" is not mapped into my brain as C-g, but as "pinky here and left index finger here." In contrast, when I want to change to next buffer, I think <SPC> b n, and not "thumb, right index finger on this button, then right index finger on this button" (although I'm sure that it will become muscle memory before long.)
HOWEVER, the nice thing about spacemacs is that you can press space and you see all possible commands pop up in the command buffer. This is a highly effective method for learning commands, and it is similar to how the "ribbon design" functioned in Microsoft Office 2007. This is where I think the E-ink keyboard could be most useful: in teaching keystrokes. It's essentially the same thing as looking down at the spacemacs command buffer, but you get to see the command pop up on your keyboard.
That being said, there are a lot of downsides to the whole idea. You're stuck with a very limited set of switch-and-layout combinations if you want an e-ink keyboard. Secondly, keyboards take a lot of abuse, and I don't know how much a replacement e-ink keycap costs, or where I'm going to get one (maybe this won't be such an issue, though). Finally, the glyph can only be represented as a glyph, and not as a detailed command like it can in a spacemacs buffer.
Cool product though; I'd get one if I had money to burn!
P.s The E Ink display isn't in contact with the actual user, the keys are just a transmissive body for the display.
If it wasn't cloud config I'd back it enough to get one.
For your keyboard I would highlight how the config only optionally uses cloud and that your settings are quite happy offline. I see cloud and keyboard or mouse and think "avoid". A couple of gaming devices and their awful connected software has caused that reaction. I'd expect some others to make similar association! :)
i will pass on this one because they keys are probably garbage, but I change my layout between several languages and i actually have some of the layouts printed out because i am still not very familiar with them.
Not my use case either, but visit any audio or video editing room. I will bet you money that every workstation will have colorful stickers on top of all the keyboards to remind the operators which keys do what on their audio/video editing software.
I see it as a vastly better add for a Macbook Pro than the touch sensitive bar.
If you're going to build a premium keyboard, then why not add mechanical keys, full size arrow keys and PgUp PgDn?
Not a peep of complaint from a coworker yet.
Can't PgUP be remapped, it's a dynamic keyboard.
Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers.
P.S The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.
The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly.
I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.
When you do get to step 2 tough, I think that 4% will prove to be underrated, because (a) RSI cases will only grow as the generations who grew up typing on computer keyboards gradually become a larger share, and (2) those making a living typing on a computer keyboard, insurance companies and employers who want to reduce costs are likely ready to spend hundreds for a healthy keyboard (I know I am).
If you can, try to find an Apple Standard Keyboard (M0116) or Apple Extended Keyboard (M0115), with orange-slider Alps switches. Try to find one in as close to unused condition as you can (ideally you want something which was stored inside a box for 25 years), as getting dust inside the mechanism affects the typing feel of Alps switches dramatically. If you can, also try to find some blue-slider (clicky) Alps switches from the same time period (late 80s through about 1990).
Most keyboard “enthusiasts” agree that these are nicer keyswitches than the AEK II’s cream-slider Alps switches. The later switches were after some cost cutting design changes at Alps (and maybe production expansions to new factories?). And also have their feel somewhat compromised by the inclusion of rubber dampers in the switch which were added to cut some of the sound.
Also, instead of a Model M, see if you can find a Model F. They’re in my opinion much more satisfying to type on, albeit a bit louder.
Other clicky switches you might try are blue SMK switches, black NMB–Hi Tek switches, and IBM beam spring switches.
Didn't realise the display was a single piece. Must make the switching and springing challenging to say the least. In fact I struggle to work out how you do it reliably with the tiny space between keys.
One to watch I hope. I look forward to interesting new products! Perhaps not a million miles from a modernised M with media and so forth. Or ergonomic.
ps, licence your keyboard to Apple in preference to getting bought by them, the Linux and PC worlds might like them too. ;)
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing while reviewing this.
An e-ink cherryMX switch keyboard, with a backlight and numpad, would be an instant buy from me (even in the hundreds of dollars range).
Once we ship the first laptop module and standalone, it's the planned next product (maybe with colour E Ink if E Ink Holdings has a time line for release).
I learned to type on a Model M keyboard. But are they actually better? Or is it all psycho-somatic? I don't think I type any slower on a modern scissor-switch keyboard. And frankly it's a lot less physical exertion and not to mention quieter.
None of them have lasted, or had the build quality, or felt as nice. More than a few have been actively irritating. The silly price Roccat was the least reliable of the lot.
I keep coming back to my M. If it's placebo it's a convincing one.
I think I get less fatigue. For example on my laptop, I feel like I keep hitting my fingers on hard surface and it gets tiring and they hurt a lot sooner than when I type on my Model M.
On laptops, Thinkpads have the best so far I've seen (tried Acer, HP, Macbook Pro).
With physical excretion, it is an interesting point. I just bolt modded my Model M (that means replacing some of the aging plastic rivets inside with metal bolts, which requires a complete disassembly and drilling holes and so on). And so for a while was using a generic keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches. Also clicky but a lot less resistance.
When I switched back to my fixed up Model M I noticed my fingers were weaker and it was hard to type. After a bit of time on it was back on track. I think fingers get stronger or get used to it perhaps.
But I totally don't discount this being a placebo effect. I know I am irrational about being attached to this keyboard. I just spent a large number of hours fiddling with it, ordering custom parts, and so on. If you ask me I'll probably tell you my program compile faster too when I type them on it ;-)
It's a fun novelty for sure, but I feel like the above target market is so tiny that the majority of purchases will be impulse buys because it seems cool, rather than because it's actually useful.
Many applications.
This looks really interesting. Yes/no depends on key feel.
I wasn't convinced by the Apple chiclet keyboard when I saw it, but I've lived with one for a year and a half now, and I'm completely comfortable with it.
If this has a similar feel I'll be seriously tempted.
P.s I hate this comment on reddit but I couldn't help myself. The mech is also manufactured to the spec for a standard laptop spec, it should feel pretty familiar.
I think its main problem was that it was too expensive.
I wonder whether this one will go the same way, after years of waiting for these glossy CGI renderings to become reality.
The 1st gen Kindle's display was a light grey resembling cheap newspaper stock. Definitely readable in decent lighting, and you could increase the font size to improve legibility if it was an issue, but not what I would call "pretty". Kind of dingy, really, and illustrations & photos all looked blah.
Current eInk Kindles' displays are much brighter looking in ambient light. Not yet as bright as the paper in a hardcover book, but about as good as a several-year-old paperback. And it is definitely bright enough to make looking at illustrations & photos worthwhile.
On top of that, the front-lighting on a very low or lowest setting will increase the contrast just enough to create the illusion of whiter paper (and if that isn't enough for you, by all means crank it up).
P.S I work with the CTO on the project; they read HN also.
Disclaimer: Despite all this Macbook remains my fav laptop, no other laptop including surface compares to integrated experience.
It also uses a lot of battery to use your phone as a wifi hotspot, using USB to share the internet connection is a lot more economical (you're actually charging the phone while it's happening.)
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni...
For a special bonus you no longer have to carry two AC adapters, your USB-C to Lightning cable goes into the same AC adapter as your laptop if you wish.
now if you refuse to give apple all your email, wifi passwords, pictures, etc, you will not have any integration.
Mostly like google stuff. If i do not give google my wifi passwords then i can't get my android watch to use wifi at all! Apple is just catching up on the game they invented.
Its actually OLED.
Learning to touchtype has been the most efficient use of my time ever.
As a mechanical keyboard user, chiclet non-mechanical keys just feel like garbage to me now. Like my laptop which I hate using only because of the keyboard. Absolutely no tactile feel at all. Just mushy little islands that my fingers can never find the center of. Absolutely horrible, it's ridiculous to me that all laptops seem to be going in that direction now.
I'm blaming Apple and it's victims for another form-over-function mess just as bad as the one-button mouse they also championed.
And after using the Ergodox fulltime now, I'm totally ruined for staggered layout standard keyboards. They feel so silly having to do ridiculous contortions with your fingers.
I'm not the target market I guess...
Ergodox FTW!
Want to use a shortcut you only need every once in a while, which is non the less buried in 3 levels of confusing menus?
Want to use shortcuts in a program you only use from time to time?
Want to learn how to efficiently use a new program, without popping over to the (potentially long and confusing) shortcut list all the time?
Do you have to write in different languages from time to time, and aren't that familiar with the keyboard layouts? (Think spanish, german, japa/chinese/...)
This can be a big benefit, if applications support it!
For example, I'm looking for the shortcut in Photoshop for "Send layer to bottom of stack". How will this keyboard be able to tell me that the shortcut for this is "Ctrl+Shift+["?? It's much easier to google or look through the "confusing menus" than to hunt for some bound-to-be cryptic icon on a tiny keyboard.
Basically you have to spend the effort to learn if you actually want to use a program, or indeed, a computer, efficiently.
I'm not a luddite, I'm all for useful efficiency improvements, but sacrificing actual keyboard tactile feel for useless displays on every key is not a tradeoff that I would make.
I agree with the languages thing though. Could be useful for that, but not nearly useful enough for me to offset the horrible mushy chiclet keys and in my opinion substandard layout.
Anyways it's still nice to have.
Additionally, plenty of 'legacy' applications (MATLAB's linux version, the Cadence Design Suite, etc) don't use standard shortcuts at all. I don't even know how to copy/paste in MATLAB off the top of my head - just that it sure as hell isn't Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V. Keyboard icons would be a boon for that.
In any case, if you don't look at your keyboard, you're hardly inconvenienced - you could even just disable the feature altogether. If these see widespread adoption/lower cost, it will aid some people while actually inconveniencing very few, so I see it as net positive.
So you'd have to already know most of the shortcut.
This product seems like a solution in search of a problem.
I think the software is what will make or break this concept. It needs to be hackable. It should probably define a standard generic interface. People need to be able to integrate it into various applications in complex ways. It'll be weird to have multiple applications that try to change the layout in their own ways, so you need a daemon that makes the final decision and you need a simple, intuitive but powerful way to control this behaviour. If not done correctly, it'll be a nightmare and/or completely useless.
Then again, sometimes it does take special software to support caps lock remapping.
Also for all those folks saying they don't look at their keyboards while typing: I don't either, except for when I have a particular key stroke committed to muscle memory, which is to say for all new applications that I would like to begin using.
Having something like this would substantially lower the barrier to entry for all keyboard centric apps. So to me it's worth it, even if I know going in that I wouldn't always look at the changing keycaps when I used them.
All that said, I gotta admit that now that I know Apple's Touch Bar is a thing, I would very, very much like to see it, or something like it, stuck on this keyboard.
Also, I really want to like Bluetooth. Built-in generic connectivity! Yet, at least once a day I have to reset a connection between my MacBook and a peripheral, or my phone and a peripheral. Touchpad batteries died and need to be replaced? Yeah, that's a reboot. Headphones won't connect? Re-pair. I hate that my Logitech keyboard comes with a dongle, but it works and I get why they included it.
I wouldn't order it before not reading a review about how the feel of the probably new mechanics is.
How black is black on backlit e-ink? I'm thinking of an inverted theme, because I don't want a keyboard glowing white all over at night.
The e-ink displays I've seen aren't brilliant at black. It's usually somewhere between 50% to 75% gray. That may well be enough, but I think a lot of people are going to want to see a production sample before buying.
Mini caps would be expensive and also not a good look as each display has an IC driver bonded to the glass substrate so you would have this large border for each key.
I totally would want to get my hands / of fingers on one before selling too.
I'm an mech engineer working at Sonder, we have an optics eng who worked on this side.
It would need a good api, too if you want to react to chained keystrokes or application states/modes.
What about an inverted look? Too much backlight bleeding through or looking OK at night? :)
And did you invent new key mechanics to keep the key clear all the way to the bottom?
I'm one of the engineers working on the project, if you have any questions please ask.
Are "fn" and "control" swappable?
It wasn't lazy design, just a compromise we had to make until we had the capital.
What kind of key mechanism do you use? It looks more like a apple keyboard than other keyboards, will it have the same very short travel?
Edit: would also be wanting the ability to completely disable any 'cloud' functions. That's a real no-go for me.
Since most ISO boards only differ in keycap and not layout, it would theoretically be possible to create a massive number of configurations with just one layout, which would be amazing!
We did testing with users and it's a compromise but our intention is redefine the standard, having 2 dominant standards doesn't make sense, likewise with non ergonomic design and staggered keys.
It looks great otherwise, even though I'll be curious to test the feedback of the keys as the mechanics seem to be on the sides of each, and not under as usual.
In this case technology makes law pointless
> In this case technology makes law pointless
Spanish keyboards usually have 1 extra key so they are typically 105 keys; in Japan they are 109 keys. From my experiences in Spain, if you are buying as a company (even if you purchase it at Carrefour or El Corte Inglais) you will pay a small premium for those non-local keyboards.
How can you type if you can't feel the keys under your hand, or if your fingers slide around instead of being centered on each key?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/paperlike-world-s-first-e...
I have one. They work fine as a second monitor (no Linux support yet though, Windows and Mac only).
Our software guys would like to work on a E Ink dev screen for software developers who stare at a screen for most of the day.
To charge the internal battery, simply plug in the braided
fiber cables – perfect also when you want to eliminate input
lag.We're in Q4 so is there a more precise estimate of availability?
Also, who are you? It's pretty rare for an engineer working on a cool project on HN to be reticent in sharing who they are, but maybe I missed the thread.
>Foxconn
As a startup, our strategic partners are incredibly important, we did a study into our supply chain to ensure it's ethical and responsible. Despite the tragedies in the past; Foxconn is the safest, they offer counseling for mental health. , They have a worker population of over a million, statistically the tragic incidents are actually a few times less common than the rest of the Chinese population and around 7 times less than the states.
I lived on their campus for around 5 months, Foxconn takes this very seriously and is doing it's best. From the little things like on average a 15% wage increase year on year for the last few years (seriously), to programs where workers can learn English and other skills.
It's frustrating they have bad PR, one thing living on campus you see is in Chinese work culture, you will nap at your desk at lunch for about an hour or so; when reports emerged they used footage and said works were worked into exhaustion.
As I've said in another comment recently, there seems to be a lot of innovation around keyboards right now---Apple's Touch Bar, RGB keyboards, this e-ink thing. I'm excited for the possibility of new standards emerging and new ways of interacting with existing applications being developed.
According to the page this keyboard is physically the same to the Magic Keyboard in height, width, depth, and weight. Somehow I don't believe that, but I'd love confirmation cause it'd be awesome. I could just swap this in for where I have my magic keyboard now.
For the HN audience, ATP-Innovations has one of the better track records as an incubator in Australia and works mostly with universities to commercialise research projects. This is one of the few examples I've seen where a student-led project (through Sydney University's Incubate) has progressed to this stage.
I'm hoping that's a sign of promising things to come!
Pure gimmick. Not useful for real work. Better luck next time, boys.
I'm not sure what he/she means exactly, but there is apparently a numpad coming.
And wondering what an E-Ink Keyboard is good for in the real world (this is a genuine question).
Perhaps it could be more useful for apps without a cli, like a DAW software package?
Or as accelerator key hints for application-specific keyboard shortcuts for applications that you don't use on a daily basis. Instead of having to dig through 3 levels of modal dialogs or menus you could just look at your keyboard to find the right shortcut.
Multilingual people who want to type in different languages easily?
No thanks.
http://www.windowscentral.com/lenovo-yoga-book
I don't kow if it is any different from e-ink keyboard.
The Sonder keyboard has the holy grail combination* of movable keys and ability to change their labels. Others have tried this, but not like this (Art Lebedev used a display per key, which was extremely expensive; Tactus use microfluidics to raise bumps on top a touchscreen but don't quite qualify as moving keys).
* Yes, the sceptics here have a point that looking at your keyboard is not very necessary. Whatever, I want it :-)
Yes, our keyboards have 14 keys on the second line of keys. Even if your keyboard can rewrite all the keys on the fly, you can't make it compatible with the stupid Brazilians ones.
Try harder next time.