Sun, surf and low rents: why Lisbon could be the next tech capital | Hacker News Reader

Sun, surf and low rents: why Lisbon could be the next tech capital

theguardian.com

55 pointssmcl54 comments

There's an article like this written about 90% of Europe's capitals. There are no tech hubs in cheap places, because smart people move away from low wage, low cost of life places. Libon stands no chance, I would say the only contenders are London, Stockholm, Berlin and maybe 2-3 others. The only low-ish cost country I could see becoming a serious contester for a tech hub would be Poland.

But you have to admit, there's an obvious need/desire for there to be other/more tech hubs. As cool as it might be for some to have a single tech hub, that kills affordability, hence distributing the hubs to numerous spots around the world. Let's face it: if you happen to be a tech employable person, wouldn't it be cool if you COULD spend a few years in tech hub A, then be able to move to tech hub B, etc.? Instead of really only having one (or too few) options? I think so anyway.

I think tech hubs are intrinsically centralized, because you need to get the best people in the sample place. If you have N tech hubs, then you have no tech hubs. If Europe is to have a real tech hub, it needs to have the best minds in Europe (at the very least) be there. And for now, there is not really any such place. Language is also a big issue.

There is such a place. That's called London and the language is English.

Source: Me and the dozens of tech people I meet every days who have left their countries to come here.

hub: the effective center of an activity, region, or network.

You'll need a new word to describe this thing you're looking for. ;)

There's a reason why hubs exist, and it's nothing to do with there being many of them to choose from.

Isn't that already the case? San Fran, NY, Austin, etc.?

Not to mention plenty of companies allow you to work remotely.

"smart people move away from low wage, low cost of life places."

I understand what you're getting at, but you should qualify that statement. There are many smart people interested in things other than money.

Yeah, but the super expensive places tend to also have other great stuff apart from great salaries. For example, Donald Knuth lives in Silicon Valley, and I doubt that VC capital is the reason.

> For example, Donald Knuth lives in Silicon Valley,

Maybe because he works in Stanford, which is in the heart of Silicon Valley? And he's been a faculty there for 40+ years, so he probably could afford a house there. AND Stanford has a program where you can lease a house on campus? Lots of reasons, all containing the word "Stanford" :)

"Tech", as the article uses it, tend to be less Donald Knuth and more Woody Allen in the sense that "80 percent of life is showing up". The "best of the best" is mostly busy being the best. Cities usually fail to attract talent because there aren't enough substance to their claims and they therefor can't get people to show up.

Cities don't fail to attract talent at all.

It's more likely that Knuth remained in Si Va after his retirement because he didn't want to sell the house, buy another house somewhere else, make a new set of friends and learn to get around a new city, rather than his making some list of places he could be living, then picking Si Va from that list.

Berlin is low wage. Bad example, shows you're a bit talking out of your ass.

Lisbon is definitely a nice place to live, but not so much to work. Otherwise why the significant emigration rate of tech workers/skilled workers? Pay is low and the hours are long. VC money in Portugal is very limited and bureaucracy is still more than what you would expect comparing to the UK.

Most entrepreneurship programs are state sponsored and usually there is some big international company involved, from incubation these companies become state dependent.

The pay is low if you compare to London, even so I had colleagues in Lisbon earning more (before taxes) than devs in London. If you don't earn enough here to live comfortably, either you dont have the skills (yet?) or have no idea of the market you're in.

Of course, if your plan is to earn money, in Europe London is the place to be.

And a lot of bureaucracy and a complex tax system.

If I wanted to start a business in Europe I'd chose the UK. They are light (for Europe) on regulation and have very simple rules when it comes to running a business according to law. Hell, you can set up your Ltd. in 10 minutes and pay the fees via PayPal.

Try that anywhere in Continental Europe.

(That's also why I don't get all the hype about Berlin. I'm from Germany and Germany is one of the last places where I would start up).

Estonia also offers all the advantages that you mention. Not to add that "brexit" could complicate a few things.

Estonia, while a little obscure, has great facilities for interacting with the government, and a very straightforward tax code. They have one of the most modern governments in Europe, with which you can interact fully digitally by using a digital id (smartcard). Also, check out their latest campaign for attracting business and talent, called e-Estonia. While they have plenty to learn, they are on the right track.

I've heard Portugal could be favourable for personal income tax if you are a remote worker, can anyone comment on that? If i'm thinking about "semi" retiring I'd like somewhere with cheap tax, sun and good hospitals.

Agreed!!! I'd also even be fine if - along with the sun and good hospitals - the taxes were at least reasonable, added in with good infrastructure (besides just hospitals) that benefited from taxes, which as a resident I would directly benefit from!

Apparently there is a 10-year 0-tax on non-Portugal income. Road to residency is quite straightforward (for non-EU citizens) (not sure about citizenship though). On the other hand, bureaucracy is quite bad I've heard.

Information related the taxation regime for "non-habitual residents": http://www.livinginportugal.com/en/moving-to-portugal/tax-re...

Apparently, the 0% tax only applies in case the income is already taxed in the state of origin...

For Americans, isn't all our income always still taxed in the US?

Under 90k earned abroad? Zero tax

Always subject to taxation by the US. There's a fairly high initial exemption for money earned abroad while living abroad.

The only exception is Puerto Rico

Usa earned income tax exemption goes up to 90k

I suspect what makes a 'tech capital' is the presence of VC money. For better or worse, SF absolutely dominates here, and till we have comparable amounts of money in another location, there won't be comparable 'tech capitals'. I doubt low rent is a marker of a tech capital anywhere. (I could be wrong).

It might make sense to register a company in the USA, raise money from US VC then work from wherever you have access to your customers and you like living. India has a few companies that do exactly this. US registered companies, a global clientele, tech work happens in India, mostly in Bangalore.

E.g: Helpshift.

Sure thing. But I think SF is more of a US thing.

I have the feeling that Europe is searching for its own tech captial right now. London was the best candidate, but (probably) got nuked by the Brexit.

I'd think it could be Berlin, it is rather cheap and still got much creative people. Don't know if they will gentrify it away the next years.

Brexit doesn't matter.

The brains are already here. The companies are already here. The language is English.

There is no other place in Europe who can compete with that.

London is far from being THE tech capital of Europe. Nowhere here has consolidated itself as a huge tech hub yet, London is good, just as Berlin is pretty good for tech jobs right now.

I'm currently living and working in Stockholm and I can say that the culture around tech here is pretty damn good, although smaller than Berlin or London we get some very good people around here, paired with Swedish efficiency. Hell, even Amsterdam has a good tech scene.

I hope that London doesn't suffer a huge backlash from Brexit but... It's not a consolidated tech hub and I really don't know about startup culture around there.

In my opinion, tech hubs need:

* Open minded culture

* Top research facilities (i.e. Multiple top universities)

* Low cost of living, high quality of life

* Large customer markets

Just because Libson has a low cost of living doesn't mean it will take off. The cost of living is low in lots of South American Cities. Does that mean they will all be the next San Fran?

Care to name a few tech hubs that have a low cost of living?

Austin, Texas in the U.S.? While the cost in dollars may be cheap, I would definitely consider there to be steep non-monetary costs to living there.

I don't think Austin is considered cheap except compared to new York and SF

Lisbon is an awesome place to live, the weather is awesome (today we have 27C and it's almost November), the food and nightlife is great and somewhat cheap compared with other european cities, but it's far away from becoming a tech capital.

It's really a nice place, especially for people who are working remotely and receiving a kind of salary that are paid in UK, US, Australia, etc

Actually I would very much prefer that Lisbon would become the next tech creative scene than the next Sillicon Valley. Besides lots of money for some people, I don't see any particular advantages of being loaded with VC money. I don't buy into the trickle down argument, from what I read over this side of the pond only the IT people are happy in SF.

For anyone employing/being employed in Portugal: I've read that that the statutory maximum working day is 8 hours. What does that actually mean in practice?

I don't know Portugal, but in Germany it's 8h too. (40h a week)

(8h work) + (0.5h to 1h lunch break) ~= 9h at the office.

In my experience (Austria and UK), lunch break is part of the 8h, i.e. I get to work at 10:00 and leave at 18:00.

http://www.bullshift.net/data/images/2013/12/lowbird-f9493a2...

Not much, i.e. there's no no enforcement of the law in practice.

Having said that it's not that difficult to find jobs where the 8h day is generally followed, and work/life balance in general is not bad.

Edit: to clarify a question that appears in other comments, those 8h do not include the lunch break, which is 1h.

It depends of the company, in a lot of places is really 8 hours but there are also some companies that you work 10h/day or more. Especially in the consulting area. Sometimes is just to show off, and people spend the time at their office doing a lot of things that are not work related.

It means nothing. Had a permanent position in a big Portuguese company and everyone in the whole team was working 12 hours plus per day.

Is uncommon to have people in Portugal working less than 40 hours. Tried to find a study to put some numbers in context of the reality I know. In the link Under "Duration of work" you can see that 78.6% of people work either 40 hours or more. http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/eurwork/compara...

This probably doesn't apply to "professional or managerial" roles

There's a big market of bodyshops over here (bodyshop, sweatshop, whatever you want to call it) mostly because the people in charge like to hire companies with consultants instead of perm positions. In those sweatshopts, sometimes there's stories of people pulling lots of hours (50+ for the big consulting gigs: accenture, deloitte, etc).

Personally, I've been working for 10+ years and I always follow the 8h. I've pulled extra hours when needed (who hasn't?) but never on a regular basis. In fact, the last 3 companies I've worked for are UK-based and I do 7.5h daily.

It is all sunny, until you try to register a company.

How come?

It's in the EU, so you can register your company where you prefer. Ireland for example.

Burocracy in south Europe is not similar to anywhere in the developed world.

You most likely have to pay taxes in the country you're living in\working from, however.

Nope

Not going to happen.

Why?

Not the OP, but I do live here: because you can't have a concentration of startups without a concentration of venture capital, and that has yet to materialize. Nor do I see a particular reason why it should materialize.

Yea, and Palatka Florida is in the running. It's close to the ocean, 45 mins from St Augustine. It's dead center between Jacksonville, Gainesville and St Augustine. It's dirt cheap with my 130 year old house at 2000 sqft only being 145k. And I'm here.

You need more than low cost housing, friendly government and eco-amenities to make a new tech hub.

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