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Comment by slg | Hacker News Reader

This doesn't even get into the dongle problem. The simplest example is that if you want to hook up Apple's flagship phone up to their flagship laptop for development, you need a dongle. And if you want to share one of their flagship wired headphones between the two devices, you need another dongle. Therefore if you want to connect three of Apple's flagship devices together on a daily basis, you can't go anywhere without bringing at least two dongles with you.

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> you need a dongle

or an USB-C to Lightning cable. Those exist. And so do any USB-C to any other USB-Plug cables.

Considering that Apple revises their hardware builds about every four years, it makes sense to move to strictly USB-C now as two years from now, I'm quite sure no more peripheral will come out that has anything but USB-C.

So within the next 2-3 years you'll have collected heaps of USB-C cables that will connect your devices directly to your MacBook Pro. No dongles what so ever.

USB-C is so much better than anything other USB that came before to the point where it can (and will) easily replace not only all other existing USB plugs out there, including on the device end (where there's a mess between USB-B, USB Mini and USB Micro right now) but also has the potential to replace the various ways how we currently connect screens (DisplayPort, DVI, HDMI, or even VGA).

Going purely USB-C means that they could optimise as much as possible for this new connector without thinking of wasting space for a useless connector three years down the road, especially as you can convert USB-C to any other USB, but if they added an USB-A port, that would not be useful for anything but USB-A plugs.

Like I said in another post, is a new single purpose cable a solution for a missing dongle if I still have to carry the old cable with me too? Great, I don't need a USB-C to USB-A dongle, I just need both my USB-C to lightning and USB-A to lightning cables. It is the same problem, just shifting around the inconvenience.

And if USB-C is so great and the future of all tech, why isn't Apple moving to it on their mobile devices? In my mind the problem isn't the specific technology used on any of these devices. The problem is that the devices aren't using the same technology between them.

>And if USB-C is so great and the future of all tech, why isn't Apple moving to it on their mobile devices?

because the proprietary Lightning plug allows them to control who is connecting to their phones and it allows them to charge for the privilege of doing so.

What's happening on the other end of that USB-Cable that's the question. My guess: In the package of the next (or the one after) they will ship an USB-C to Lightning cable.

Google has moved to USB-C with the Pixel.

https://madeby.google.com/phone/

Within 24 months, most Android phones will ship with USB-C.

That's over a billion devices a year.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/1/11836816/iphone-vs-android-...

Chromebook are starting to ship with USB-C.

http://venturebeat.com/2016/10/03/hp-chromebook-13-review-th...

USB-C is the future. I'm really not sure why PC vendors having put a couple of all of their desktops and laptops. Many will probably offer both A and C, for at least a few years.

If you have buy a new computer with 0 USB-C ports, you're going to regret it in a few years.

They had actually moved even before that with 5X and 6P. They were some of the first phones to do it. I believe a few samsung and other phones have already switched too.

In my opinion, that's courage that actually matters. USB-C is a huge step forward which everyone will benefit from once we all move. Removing the audio jack? meh.

Most new-ish Android phones (as counted by number of models) are likely already coming with USB-C. Both the Pixels, the Nexus 5X and 6P before them, the LG v20, the Moto Z, all come with USB-C. As far as I'm aware, only Samsung hasn't made the jump yet.

> Considering that Apple revises their hardware builds about every four years, it makes sense to move to strictly USB-C now

This would make a lot more sense if Apple had switched the iPhone to USB-C as well. That way, you really could just use one cable for everything. Instead, you need three separate charger for your iPhone, Macbook Pro, and Apple Watch. Oh, and the iPhone comes with lightning-USB-A cables, which means you can't even connect a brand-new iPhone to a Macbook Pro out-of-the-box without getting a dongle.

High-end Android phones like the Nexus 5x, 6P, and Pixel already use USB-C, as do some non-flagship Android phones. It's brilliant - it means I only need to carry one charger for both my phone and my computer, and that charger also can be dismantled if I want to connect my phone to my computer.

>This would make a lot more sense if Apple had switched the iPhone to USB-C as well

yes. it would have. And this is the actual problem there. Lightning is just another way of controlling their walled-garden around iOS and I really hate it for that reason.

But that's beside the point of the port choice of the new Macs: The phones always have a lightning port, so the cable connecting to them will always have a lighting plug on one end.

What they could have done is ship the iPhone with an USB-C to Lightning cable instead of a USB-A to Lightning cable, but then people would have been even more pissed as USB-C isn't that wide-spread yet and in-fact until yesterday was only supported by one single machine made by Apple.

> [USB-C] in-fact until yesterday was only supported by one single machine made by Apple

Really, have a look at this [1] half-year-old list of 10 non-Apple laptops that have USB-C ports... Of course pretty much all of these have USB-A ports too, because their manufacturers don't have a blind following and actually have to compete with each other.

[1] http://windowsreport.com/usb-c-laptops/

I think you might have misunderstood me.

I didn't want to say that USB-C was only supported by Apple.

What I meant was that of all the devices that Apple makes, until yesterday only one supported USB-C, so shipping the new iPhone not just without Headphone Jack but also with a cable that can only be used with the minority of all their computers would really have been a strange move (plus, there's no small USB-C power brick yet, so they would have had to produce one of those too - or give you their 29W one for free which would probably have been a bit too expensive)

> USB-C isn't that wide-spread yet and in-fact until yesterday was only supported by one single machine made by Apple.

USB-C isn't "widespread" yet in laptops, but it's hardly brand new. USB-C has been supported for a while by other laptops. In fact, Apple isn't even the first to release a laptop with Thunderbolt 3.

I know because Dell's XPS 13 has been shipping with Thunderbolt 3/USB-C for over a year now, and it's not the only one.

Is anyone else tired of all this "walled garden" blather?

They designed Lightning because it best solved their needs.

Why the specious and unprovable claim it's to lock people out? Can you read their minds?

(Sure, down-vote away, HN groupthink always wins...)

In order to add lightning support to a device of yours you need to be part of the MFI program which comes with NDAs, influence on functionality through Apple and, of course, a license fee per unit you ship.

If lightning was purely about the technical advantages it provides, they would have made it an open standard or at least documented it.

There were some technical reasons for not going with MicroUSB of course, but don't tell me that their MFI licensing model isn't a huge reason for a proprietary connector.

Or they could be like everyone else in the world, who have finally given up on proprietary ports and settled on micro-usb, to much rejoicing. But no, they are special.

> or an USB-C to Lightning cable.

How is that different in any way?

Before: you were carrying a cable (type A - lightning)

GP: you have to carry a cable (type A - lightning) and a dongle (type A - type C) rage rage eleventyone

If you have a brain: you carry a cable (type C - lightning)

Instead of two things, you just need one. They're saying that instead of a USB-A-to-Lightning cable and a USB-A-to-USB-C adapter, you can just use the one cable.

I think Apple could’ve avoided a lot of the hate if they’d bundled a few of the more common adapters as standard, to ease people through the transition to using USB-C for everything.

If I bought a new MBP today, I’d need:

* a Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter at £49

* a USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter (giving HDMI and a USB port) at £69

* a USB-C to USB Adapter at £19

That’s £137 just to connect the things I have currently connected to my 2015 MBP (external monitor, Thunderbolt HD, my phone and a USB->FTDI programmer).

Couldn't agree more. I priced Macbook Pro 15" plus adapters in CDN $ and got sticker shock.

Did the same in UK. They also bumped the prices in the UK for all machines due to the fall in GBP. Double shock.

Did you vote for brexit? ;-)

This would lessen the blow: http://www.monoprice.com/search/index?keyword=usb-c+adapter

With the abysmally low margins typically made off of keyboards and mice along with the fact that the highend of the market is driven by desktop gamers, I think you're going to see plain USB Keyboards and Mice sticking around for a long, long, long, long time. Hell, I can still buy some of my favorite keyboards with a PS/2 connection or with an included adapter.

I've been using external devices for these with my macbook for years.

Edit: In fact, I think this applies to almost any low-cost, low-margin pluggable. Laptop coolers/fans are another. Either USB-C is going to kill the market for these or you're wrong.

> I think you're going to see plain USB Keyboards and Mice sticking around for a long, long, long, long time

I'm not saying the old USB A peripherals will stop to exist. I'm saying that two years from now every conceivable peripheral will be available with a USB-C plug or at least a USB-C to whatever they need cable.

And in the case of the devices I mentioned, that will almost always be a dongle.

No thanks.

> So within the next 2-3 years you'll have collected heaps of USB-C...

I agree with you that in the future USB-C is better and makes more sense. However, I don't think that the logical conclusion is that we should get rid of USB-A prematurely. I liken this the the decision to remove the CD from computer when CD were still used daily. I agreed that CDs wouldn't be used in the future, but, that doesn't do much for me if I still use CD daily. In hindsight it just caused an unnecessary annoyance while the CDs were naturally phased out.

That's the price of progress and this dropping support of older technology sooner than everyone else has been part of Apple's MO forever. The day 3rd parties will stop making older parts/accessories is the day they're no longer viable to make. If Apple were to keep a USB A jack for legacy compatibility reasons, 3rd parties will certainly delay moving forward to the new USB-C standard.

I agree with you, but it seems they are already selling a USB-C to lightning cable.

http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni...

a.k.a the "lightning to thunderbolt" cable.

That might remove the dongle but is it any better? I now need either two cables, one to hook my phone up to my laptop and one to hook it up to my computer, or a new charger that accept USB-C but won't be compatible with most other devices out there.

> That might remove the dongle but is it any better?

Er… yes?

> I now need either two cables, one to hook my phone up to my laptop and one to hook it up to my computer

Except you carry one cable with you and the other one stays hooked to an eventual desktop computer, rather than having to carry around a cable and a dongle.

What kind of plug do you find in cars? What kind of plug do you find in hotel nightstands? What kind of plug do you find in airplanes? What kind of plug do you find in almost every outlet charger made by Apple or anyone else? The answer to all of those isn't USB-C. So if you want to connect your iPhone to both your laptop and almost all charging sources in the real world, you need either two cables or one cable and a dongle.

Correct but by this line of thinking we're never ever going to evolve beyond USB-A.

From Apple's site:

- USB-C to Thunderbolt 2: $49

- SanDisk SD Card USB-C Reader: $49.95

- USB-C AV Multiport Adaptor (HDMI): $69

Spend another $168 and you access to add the same ports you have now!

For 200$ you can order an acceptable, good looking laptop with 8 Gig ram and a low range Celeron quad core from China.

Gotta love apple. ^^

I cherish the memory of paying 60 Euros for my Apple HDMI adapter, another 40 for the VGA one, 80 Euros for a freaking charger,...

Always the same thing with Apple, you need to pay extra (actually premium) to get the things that used to be standard.

"Don't buy cables/adapters from Apple" has been the general rule for decades. Grab stuff like this from Monoprice and it'll probably run you $20.

"Don't buy RAM from Apple" was the general rule, but now they solved the pesky problem by soldering the RAM.

The nice thing about USB-C is that its a standard, so you don't have to buy it from Apple only anymore like before. For example I have https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K7C53K2 for $69, which is really useful: plug one cable in and everything is connected.

All those arguments were once said when the first iMac came out and all it had were USB ports. All devices will have USB-C connectors soon, and instead of getting dongles, you'll be simply replacing your cables to be USB-C versions of them all.

All these arguments were also said when Apple replaced Firewire/mini-DVI/... by Thunderbolt, a fantastic new standard, and we all had to buy the adapters that we'll now throw away.

It seems that USB-C will be more successful than Thunderbolt 1/2 have been, but Apple really isn't helping it with the way they're doing the switch (some devices USB-C only, some devices USB-A only, Lightning headphones...).

In the short term sure, but in the long term standardizing on usb-c is a good thing. If only they had done usb-c on the iPhone7 also.

What prevents you from connecting them using Bluetooth? I forgot when it was a last time I had to connect my iphone via cable, MacBook just always knows that it's there via Bluetooth, and for the headphone, their flagship headphones are wireless now, and I've been very happy using bose Bluetooth headphones, losing a cord is a major benefit that far outweighs any drawbacks of dongles for me

> What prevents you from connecting them using Bluetooth

I don't think you can connect via BT and then use that connection from Xcode for deployment and debugging. That still requires a cable.

You can, starting from Xcode 6

How? I just tried it: Made my phone discoverable, paired to it using the Mac's bluetooth preference pane. Xcode (8.1) doesn't list the phone in the "Devices" pane nor does it offer it as a deployment target.

In Xcode 8 you can't. They briefly had it as a feature but it has never worked properly and is not supported. EDIT: It was also using Wi-Fi, not Bluetooth.

Correct. I've hacked at it a bit in an attempt to re-enable the functionality but I haven't been successful yet. After reversing some old XCodes and iOS binaries I found a MobileDevice.framework call that is related to WiFi debugging but even after poking the iDevice with it, XCode doesn't show it in it's device list.

  extern int AMDeviceSetWirelessBuddyFlags(struct am_device *device, uint8_t flags);
  AMDeviceSetWirelessBuddyFlags(device, 1|2);

I see another reply saying you can but I've never done it

At one time, back in the Xcode 4.x days I believe, they did support development over WiFi. It didn't seem to be very well tested at the time and got pulled out soon after. They seem to have given up on the idea for some reason but it would be nice to go that route again.

You must have some of those magical Bluetooth devices that actually work.

I've never found Bluetooth to work without having to fiddle for ten or fifteen minutes to get the cussed things to pair up.

> The simplest example is that if you want to hook up Apple's flagship phone up to their flagship laptop for development, you need a dongle.

Why would you bother with a dongle when you can get a Type C — Lightning cable for the same price?

Or a wifi connection for free!

I don't believe you can sideload or debug applications over wifi, the comment I replied to was specifically talking about development.

MACBOOK: Must Acquire Costly Bunches Of Other Kit

Two dongles at 49.99$ each make 99.98$ LOL xD

If I want to use it to connect to my Apple Thunderbolt Display, add another dongle.

Apple is turning into a more expensive version of Belkin

I'm really shocked about this, I mean, I had thought that they saw the future in USB-C after they previewed the MacBook.

? Thunderbolt 3 is compatible with USB-C (in terms of the port)

More specifically, TB3's connector is the USB-C port.

Oh, didn't know that. Thanks.

So does that mean that it also supports the USB protocol?

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