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Comment by mstade | Hacker News Reader

I don't get this backlash. I'm a developer. I touch type since 20 years back. I haven't used the F-keys in probably just as long. At this point, all I do with those keys is raise/lower the volume/screen brightness.

The only key I'll miss is ESC, but I'm sure I'll figure out how to survive.

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> I haven't used the F-keys in probably just as long. At this point, all I do with those keys is raise/lower the volume/screen brightness.

This... puzzles me. Admittedly I spend most of my personal time in linux, and professional time in windows, but I never have enough keys for shortcuts. Like.. I'm up to binding ctrl-shift-* and ctrl-alt-*

Is macOS not very able to be keyboard driven? Or is that personal preference?

By default, the function keys on MacBooks are bound to alternate functions; the F1/F2 keys adjust the brightness, F11/F12 volume, etc. You have to hold down the `fn` key to actually press F1, F2, etc. This makes them a bit less convenient than on Windows laptops.

Or you put them in default F-key mode and use Fn to do those secondary functions instead. My keyboard has F-keys that act as F-keys so I can use them while debugging and such.

That's the default on every windows laptop I've used in the past decade as well. Laptop manufacturers realized a long time ago that volume and screen brightness are more important to the average consumer.

You can inverse it though.

macOS applications use other shortcuts for things where Linux applications use function keys. For example in Chrome:

Refresh Webbrowser - F5 - CMD+R

Close Tab - Alt+F4 or CTRL+W - CMD+W

By default most function keys don't even work as regular function keys in macOS unless you use fn+F1. They are mapped to OS related stuff like brightness, play/skip and volume.

I'd say most of my time is spent in macOS, with perhaps a third of it spent in Windows. I don't really use F-keys in windows either. It seems these days the typical key mappings in Windows and macOS are essentially the same – Cmd+W closes a window on macOS, Ctrl+W does the same in windows. Perhaps the only time I use F-keys in windows is Alt+F4 to close an application, but even that just doesn't happen very often since closing the last window typically closes the application.

On macOS I use the keyboard for almost everything, but off hand I don't know a single key binding relying on F-keys. They're always Cmd[+Shift][+Alt]+Alphanum more or less.

> Ctrl+W does the same in windows

No, it doesn't. Ctrl+W isn't a general shortcut on Windows. A number of programs have adopted it to close windows/tabs (seems to have risen to prominence after browsers started binding it), but it's not a standard binding still. e.g. It does nothing in Outlook or Notepad.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445/windows-keybo...

AFAIK, command-W is a Microsoft invention. They introduced it in Word, Excel and IE for the Mac, then copied it to Office for Windows. Apple adopted it in its UI guidelines.

The "Apple Human Interface Guidelines" (1987) surely doesn't mention it (it has undo/cut/copy/paste, new/open/save, cancel and help, and plain/bold/italic/underline)

"Windows User Experience" (1999) doesn't mention it, either.

"OS X Human Interface Guidelines" (2015) does mention it (aside: I find it good to see that the online version already has a section on the Touch Bar (https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...). It also has a new name: macOS Human Interface Guidelines)

Oh, interesting – I learned something today, thanks! All applications I use support this, so I just assumed it was generally available.

(FWIW macOS can be keyboard driven as much as Windows can. I used a macbook pro with a broken touchpad as my primary computer for about 18 months since it otherwise worked fine. But like other commenters I have never used the "F" keys except for the printed functions of changing keyboard and screen brightness, and volume. I don't even know what those other keys do.)

The big lesson here is that other peoples' mileage may vary, and Apple knows that people who touch type function keys and/or use vi on MacBooks are a sufficiently small market that they can simply be served by mapping caps lock (likely a key they don't use either).

In fact come to think of it, caps lock is a perfect example: it's clearly not there for developers, yet nobody complains about the waste of having it on the keyboard. There are enough people who use it to leave it around.

As a developer you've never debugged and use the F-keys?

I've basically never used the F-keys. Are you using them in an IDE?

Most (all?) GUI debuggers either in IDEs or browser dev tools use F-keys to step through code.

Fair. I'm pretty click oriented in IntelliJ IDEA, and chrome devtools. I guess if I used IntelliJ more, I'd learn the F-key shortcuts, but I have an external keyboard for most typing, so I still wouldn't miss them on the laptop keyboard... and if I did, I'd just map some virtual buttons. Debugging is slow and deliberate for me, I don't need to touch type for that(personally).

Actually, never. Most of my work is in Xcode, though I do some Android Studio, PyCharm, and, if I have to, command-line gdb. As a developer working on a Mac for almost 10 years, I genuinely can't recall the last time I ever used a function key.

I do touch type. I do use the F keys with my IDE. I do not touch type the F keys.

I have, but I mostly stopped using IDEs years ago. I use Sublime for pretty much any editing, and most of the time use tracing and look at logs to debug. I don't find stepping through execution with a debugger is my first method of choice when debugging, but when it comes to that the tools I use these days (such as gdb or the node debugger) don't use F-keys for stepping, but rather has interactive commands like `next` or `continue`, or `n` and `c` for short. I find that more useful than F9 or whatever might be the "typical" key is for "step next" – I can never remember.

I've also been on a Mac for years, and to get to the "usual" F-key behavior you have to hit fn+F<n> to get to whatever you wanted to do, otherwise they are mapped to things like volume or brightness control. I can't remember the last time I hit fn+F<n>.

The F buttons aren't going away, just the physical keys are.

Personally, I find the idea of a customizable, context aware, not-just-buttons, function row very interesting.

^[ is the keyboard escape sequence for ESC, I even prefer using it on keyboards with ESC keys since it's less of a reach. It's really nice for vim and evil-mode.

I've had `jj` bound to ESC for several years now, and I know lots of people who use `jk` or `fj` too. Hitting `jj` is super quick and barely requires movement, but I've always hated the small delay after typing a `j` (while it listens for another `j` to complete the chord). I may have to retrain myself to use ^[ instead.

I'm thinking since the new Macs still have the fn key I might just remap that to Esc – I never use it anyway.

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