Comment by antognini | Hacker News Reader

Comment by antognini | Hacker News Reader

I had the privilege of visiting the Church of the Holy Sepulchre after attending an astronomy conference in Israel a year ago. My wife and I got there for a mass just a little before 6am so it wasn't very crowded. It was really an extraordinary experience. The Edicule had something of a steampunk feel to it, which I was not expecting. As the article mentions, it was built in the 1800s, but due to the Status Quo agreement, it has not been maintained at all and it looked like it could collapse at any moment.

The whole mass felt very surreal. As it was being celebrated there was simultaneously an Armenian liturgy and Greek Orthodox liturgy being celebrated on other sides of the Edicule. If you've ever been to one of those liturgies, you know that there's an almost constant drone of chant throughout. At times it was hard to hear the priest in front of us! I'm still not sure whether to interpret the experience as being a wonderful illustration of the unity or the disunity of the Christian Church.

Spent the winter in Israel a couple of years ago. The old city in Jerusalem is awe inspiring.

As for the Holy Sepulchre, as a non-Christian I found it pretty surreal. Clearly for the faithful it's a big deal, saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre.

The church itself is beautiful, powerful artwork from all of the sects (Ethiopian included). Particularly the fresco at the entrance, Christ being laid to rest, the disciples in tears, pretty moving piece.

Unfortunately my experience was darkened by a group of troublemaker teenagers; saw them shove an old woman deep in prayer, just appalling. On leaving they followed me and one of them spit in my hair. When I turned around the kid said, "only water, only water".

Needless to say Jerusalem's a complex mix of cultures, history, and religions.

> On leaving they followed me and one of them spit in my hair

Wtf?

> saw people outright crying coming out of the Sepulchre

This sort of reaction is deeply troubling to me because I see it as evidence of the overwhelming grip that religions have on (some of) their followers. It reminds me of videos of teenagers crying at the sight of Michael Jackson or the Beatles at live performances. It is unnecessary.

My mother, for example, is unable to laugh at even the most trivial of jokes about her religion, things that aren't even attacking her religion but simply having fun with a play on words. I am constantly seeking to remind her that it is a lack of lightheartedness that is at the rock of extremism. I encourage her involvement at her church for social reasons while attempting to remind her that anything that can't be laughed about is being taken too seriously (this is the foundation for many unnecessary wars and acts of violence or discrimination).

I know the likelihood that I'll ever succeed is small, but it's important to me to wake people from what I consider to be a way of thinking that impairs sound judgement (say, when voting or choosing how to react to world politics). I'm not against religion or the right to practice religion, just its ability to cause hysteria.

Not just religion. People cried when Princess Diana died. They cried on the anniversary of 9/11. And on 9/11 itself. People develop personal feelings towards popular people/events/concepts. That's just how we are, automatically forming emotional relationships, even when they're one-directional like in all these cases.

I wonder if people cried during Apple keynotes / events. Can't deny that people get an emotional response from that.

People aren't robots.

> I am constantly seeking to remind her that it is a lack of lightheartedness that is at the rock of extremism....I know the likelihood that I'll ever succeed is small, but it's important to me to wake people from what I consider to be a way of thinking that impairs sound judgement (say, when voting or choosing how to react to world politics). I'm not against religion or the right to practice religion, just its ability to cause hysteria.

Have you considered what is trivial and lighthearted to you might be deeply offensive to her? You might say "that is exactly what I am trying to change" but to that I would say "why". Unless a person is explicitly causing harm either by doing anti social things or inciting people with speeches to do anti social things, or forces their belief system on you, what someone believes in or finds funny is no one's business. I guess your mother isn't any of that - she's just a law abiding woman with a certain religious faith that makes her life feel meaningful - so leave her alone.

It also seems that you are to quick to relate religious people with religious extremists, which is flawed. The whole idea of atheists having to "wake up" religious people is quite cocky and indecent. Also the assumption that religious people have "impaired judgement" is deeply offensive. If anything, its the atheists who are extremists with impaired judgement because they think they are better then the religious people.

I used to be one of these cocky atheists in my early 20s and used to constantly bother my deeply religious mother until one day she told me off. She basically said why do I bother her when she doesn't force me to follow the religion (she did like any parent till I was a teen and rebelled and then left me alone). That was a wake up call to me. Of course, my cockiness will come right out whenever a religious relative or colleague tries to mock my lack of faith or give me unsolicited advice with religion based arguments. But in general, I don't try to be holier than thou and look down upon religious people or interfere with their faith.

> Have you considered what is trivial and lighthearted to you might be deeply offensive to her?

No doubt. Perhaps I could have been clearer. There is no version of a joke about her religion that isn't offensive to her. And yes, this is indeed the basis for the beginnings of extremism, although not full blown extremism by itself.

If you can't hear or read something about your religion that is contrary to your strict beliefs without getting offended, you are 100% doing it wrong.

I'm reminded of G.K. Chesterton's quip: "It is the test of a great religion whether you can joke about it." Chesterton was a very devout Catholic.

>saw them shove an old woman deep in prayer

That's how it starts, then it escalates and finally you get crusaded against.

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