Hacker News Reader

Comment by untog | Hacker News Reader

I know USB-C is the future, but it's going to be a long, long, long time before all our devices are using it - particularly external displays. My current Macbook Pro has an HDMI port. I use it every day. I do not want to carry a converter dongle with me everywhere (I did that with my old Air that only had a DisplayPort).

To echo other complaints: this is supposed to be a professional machine. I don't care about it being several mm thinner, especially when it comes at the cost of useful ports and a great keyboard. Give me a device that I can use, day in day out. Don't take away the damn escape key to trial out a new "touch bar" that inputs emojis, and don't bump the price up by this much when you know I'm going to have to go out and buy a host of $20 dongles when I buy the thing.

View on HN

I agree that their devices have been getting unnecessarily thin, but their aggressive push towards Type-C is for the best. The industry will follow Apple's lead as usual, and in a year's time most devices will be Type-C compatible.

In the interim, I don't see the big deal with throwing an HDMI adapter in your bag unless you carry your laptop around in your hand.

Agreed. Accessory makers aren't going to build the ecosystem if they don't have to, and most manufacturers are apparently too chicken to commit to type C (let alone TB3).

Of course not being able to plug in USB sticks, mice, keyboards, or anything really due to lack of USB-A port is a significantly huge hassle and a rather big step back for "it just works" motto of previous laptops :/

USB-C flash drives are already out there, and cheap. Will still need the dongle for transferring between the new Macs and non-USB-C devices for ~3 years.

These are laptops with built-in keyboards and trackpads. People who opt for external input devices do so via Bluetooth. I've never seen a USB keyboard plugged into a MacBook; and even if you have a fancy gaming keyboard, USB-C replacements will be out in a matter of months. Or again, the dongle.

This series of laptops is a perfect progression. It needed to have 4 USB-C ports, and it does. No complaints.

Well, other than the lack of a hard escape key. Turning shift+F6 into shift+fn+F6 is annoying, but I'll get over it. The only applications that I use fn keys with have key remapping, so if I really can't stand it I'll change my shortcuts. The escape key though... not looking forward to the day I upgrade my hardware and find myself having to enable the "caps-lock is now the escape key" preference.

Bunch of generalisation. Plenty of people use external devices via USB with Macbooks. Now all of them will need adaptors. Same goes for people who have a bunch of flash drives. New ones may not be expensive, but it's still a waste of money when nothing actually stopped working.

So the installed base of projectors is going to sprout a usb-c connector in the next two years?

It's no worse than the current situation, where most projectors only take VGA. If you have a MacBook Air or older MacBook Pro, you already had to carry a Mini-DispalyPort adapter regardless.

If you own a projector, you're used to keeping adapters around for different computers. If you give presentations frequently, you're used to keeping adapters in your travel bag for different projectors.

I suppose someone has written this already, but today's presentation made it more than clear that it's indeed for (aspiring) professionals, but not for fully-fledged IT professionals. So a musician, artist, photographer, writer etc. is in the target audience. Those people do not use function keys and in most cases (except for writers) do not touch-type. Everyone else is not in the target demographics and will have found the new generation unusable.

So in that sense, Apple's positioning of the new MacBook Pro is spot-on and probably has been this way for years. Most of us just thought that a good notebook with a "pro" label is meant for IT professionals. It probably never has been, it's just this year that the distinction is this striking.

Out of curiosity, what do you use function keys for?

I'm a developer, and the only key I routinely use from the top row is escape, for vim. (And Ctrl-Alt-F1 to drop out of X11 on a Unix system... but that's not applicable here.)

Anyway, it looks like you can still put a virtual escape key on the touchpad when Terminal is active. Or if you want a physical key, you can also remap one of the other modifier keys to act as escape.

* F3 - Find(Rarely, generally only works in older applications.)

* F5 - Refresh(Works in many applications.)

* F6 - Cycle through input box focus in Firefox.

* F9 - Expose, All Windows

* F10 - Expose, Current Application

* F11 - Expose, Desktop

* F12 - Dashboard

Plus many other function keys that are application dependent. I started with function keys in MS-DOS and Word Perfect since it came with a keyboard overlay.

I think the touch bar design is fine, but I doubt I would get enough value out it to make it useful enough to me while not making me regret losing physical function keys. They kept a 13" model with function keys, which is the size I prefer, so it will be fine into the future for me.

F3 - In mac that's never used. But there is the CMD+? For searching menu pages. Not even sure what you're referring to with "find" though.

F5 - CMD+R is standard in MAC. I haven't used F5 in years, and I just tried it (didn't work).

F6 - Like TAB?

F9 - Well there is something like this on F3 but I never used it. I can do this with hot corners in mac, way easier.

F10 - Same like above

F11 - Same like above

F12 - Not sure, never used dashboard in osx.

This being said, I am sad for the removal because I use the top row a lot for volume/playback/brightness/esc.

Press F3 in Firefox, it brings up the Find interface.(Search in page.)

F5 does not work in Chrome or Safari, but works in nearly everything else I use.

F6 - It is a tabbing functionality for application input boxes, but related Firefox and other applications with similar design.

I actually have the top left corner set to do Expose all windows as well.

I'm an avid Midnight Commander user ;-)

I use the Function keys all the time while developing - mostly for debugging.

In IntelliJ, Visual Studio (through Parallels) and Chrome, the Function keys allow me to step through the debugger. It's pretty standard in my day to day workflow, and they all pretty much use the same keys.

Esc is pretty useful in vim and it's used frequently in Windows. I could remap a key, I just don't like being dependent on custom layouts since I sometimes have to switch between machines and I'd rather it be as consistent as possible.

Yes, I've never once thought about my MPBr "This beast, it's just too thick!" Honestly the only improvements I would like are the following:

   1. Stop making new power connector standards.
   2. Stop making power adapters that fray after a year.
   3. Increase battery life.
   4. *Add* at least one standard USB port.
   5. Decrease display bezel.
   6. Increase RAM and HDD to 32G and 10TB.

1. They have, new Apple laptops are now using USB-C.

2. They have, new Apple laptops now use a USB-C charger that has a separate cable, rather than a fixed attachment point.

3. The 15" has increased by an hour.

4. USB-C is a standard, and is backwards compatible via cheap adapters/cables. USB-A ports are not forwards compatible, and cannot be used for charging, thunderbolt, display port, etc.

5. They have. Both 13" and 15" are smaller externally with the same screen size.

6. RAM, I agree with. My 2011 17" MBP has 16GB RAM so I don't know why they aren't up to 32GB yet, at least in the 15". I doubt 10TB is feasible as SSD in a portable device this size.

1. They have, new Apple laptops are now using USB-C.

I don't think you understood the question.

I don't think you did either since there wasn't a question. javajosh didn't ask a question.

OTOH, since 2005 they've changed the connector _once_, and the adapter is seamless enough that I still use 2006 and 2008 model chargers without giving it a second thought.

It was a good run. I enjoyed being able to have a suite of adapters scattered about home and work.

The power connector had a good run but they couldn't get the video connector right! Every new generation Apple laptop I buy has a different video adaptor.

I've had similar - my 2007 MBP had full DVI. My 2011 MBP has Thunderbolt. My next one will have USB-C.

But what is the alternative you'd prefer? They still ship with that massive DVI connector?

Frankly, one they stopped using an apple-proprietary connector (ADC, which was basically DVI + USB + Power in a single cable, 14 years before USB-C) in 2004, there's not much to complain about.

Since they dropped ADC, they've used combinations of DVI, Mini DisplayPort, HDMI, Thunderbolt1 & 2, USB-C, and now Thunderbolt 3.

Those are all industry standard ports. Some are influenced by Apple, but none are limited to Apple.

But displays have advanced rapidly as well and have constantly increasing data requirements. The new MBP can drive a 5K monitor at 60Hz (two, even!), and that much bandwith requires TB3.

After a quick perusal of Amazon, if I got a new MBP I'd need to spend at least $100 to be able to plug in what I have hooked up to my current one. Not to mention the annoyance of turning my desk into a rat's nest of adapters

At my work we call a fully plugged in MBP a "Cthulhu of dongles".

> 6. Increase HDD to 10TB.

Are you high? Samsung just announced the 2TB 960 Pro for >$1200, their 4TB SSD the year before was like $4000. 10TB is enterprise-class 2.5" $10000 a pop land (or cheaper in bulk, Seagate announced a 60TB SSD for $40000 in 3.5" format)

You can buy a Sandisk 2TB SSD for $650. Not that that changes the point about 10TB.

That 2tb from sandisk would likely be a sata drive. Slow.

I bet OP meant 1TB..

> 6. Increase RAM and HDD to 32G and 10TB.

I very much hope that you meant "1TB."

Yeah, I would consider retiring my Air for one of the new Pros, but I'll have to spend ~$300 replacing power cords (home, office, backpack), monitor adapters (backpack, around office, at home), while still having to keep the old chargers and adapters due to my old work computer. That dissuades me.

At the office - this now means that the conference room adapters, power cords, etc will have to be swapped out as soon as a new employee starts.

In 1998 the iMac dropped most other ports. Admittedly, maybe a bit less severe because it still had an ethernet port, and a couple FireWire. But it did drop the ports that were commonly used for peripherals and devices, which is the similarity. People used those, every day. In the exact same model, they also dropped floppy drives. A _lot_ of stuff people used frequently was no longer supported in that device.

I'm not sure that this time it will work out for them, that's not what I'm saying at all. Personally, I think HDMI is useful still. And I'm hugely sad to see the MagSafe go. I guess all I'm saying is it's not totally uncharted territory, or even that uncharacteristic of Apple.

I'd argue the iMac was a different situation because there was an immediate upside to using USB peripherals, namely they were much cheaper than Mac proprietary stuff. For example HP had a popular inkjet printer, the PC (parallel port) version was $150, while the Mac (serial port) version was $300. The floppy wasn't a huge loss either as most Mac users were using Zip disks.

There's no real advantage right now in using TB3/USB-C, because pretty much nothing else uses it. And I'd bet that, in 2020, USB-A, HDMI, DP, and even VGA will still be in common use, so I'll probably be using dongles forever.

This. Apple has lost touch with reality. They seem to confuse the consumer iPhone world where they basically get away with whatever they want (since they set the standards and it's all just toys and entertainment anyway) with the professional world where people actually have to get shit done.

I can't believe they are trying to sell this toy bar, ehm excuse me, touch bar, in a device that's supposed to be "professional". It's unreal. It reminds me of one of those "IoT hotels" that are replacing every light switch and toilet flush with a touch screen. Same kind of useful.

I suspect folks are still going to buy it because Apple. But I sincerely hope that the competition use this opportunity to execute on some real work machines.

And the wild thing is, the ports introduced today aren't even USB-C; they're Thunderbolt 3 ports.

Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C are not the same, right?

No, but the ports are dual-mode. Plug a USB-C thing into it and it's a USB port. Plug a Thunderbolt device in and it's a Thunderbolt port.

Similar to the dual-mode mini-DP/Thunderbolt ports of the past.

The ports introduced today absolutely are USB-C.

If all USB ports on machine are also thunderbolt ports, it looks like a security problem.

From what I understand, they are merged. Meaning that USB C and Thunderbolt 3 are compatible, but you will get more throughput when you are TB3 to TB3 than when mixing with USB C (I may be off!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)#Thunde...

Thunderbolt 3 is basically an extension which builds on top of USB-C. As such it's fully backwards compatible.

* USB-C is the physical port, TB3 uses USB-C

* TB3 is an alternate mode of USB, if you have TB3 you have USB[0]

* The reverse is not true, you can have non-TB3 USB-only ports

[0] well technically not necessarily, the USB-C and USB-3.1 standards are completely separated but that'd be really stupid

Reply on news.ycombinator.com