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Comment by dasmoth | Hacker News Reader

It may not be the ports you want but 4x Thunderbolt/USB-C connectors is not exactly "no ports".

No HDMI. No miniDP. No ethernet. No SDHC reader. No USB port that 100 out of 100 keyboards and mice will plug into. No audio input port.

There are no^H^H only useless ports.

> No USB port that 100 out of 100 keyboards and mice will plug into

I haven't had a non-bluetooth input device since 2009.

We're not all you. I strongly prefer USB devices because I don't have to care about battery charging and pairing. It just works.

Clearly Apple believes there are more people like me (with bluetooth cars, headphones, keyboards, and trackpads) than people like you. Anyways, his "100 out of 100" comment is comically wrong.

No, Apple believes there are more people willing to convert to being like you, and buy all new devices. Not that there are today.

And they're welcome to do so, but they're pushing consumers like me away from their products.

They might believe it but their world market share in the personal computer space being around 5% clearly shows they're wrong.

The USB standard has evolved along the way. It is ironic that you "prefer USB" devices but fails to show support for USB-C ports.

(Edited to be less personal)

Oh, come on. I don't "support" anything, being a fanboy of a peripheral plug variant is a life I don't even want to contemplate.

I'm very happy to adapt to new things, when they offer a demonstrable benefit to me. What benefit does a USB-C keyboard give me, exactly? I don't need the extra bandwidth to transmit keypresses. Why not include one or two traditional USB3 ports alongside the USB-C ports to ease people over to a new standard?

>What benefit does a USB-C keyboard give me, exactly?

That you can connect it to phones with USB-C without any dongles. Almost all new phones have USB-C. Except one from Apple.

...why on earth would I want to connect my full-size PC keyboard to my phone?

/u/MechanicalKeyboards would like a word with you.

> I'm very happy to adapt to new things, when they offer a demonstrable benefit to me.

It takes time before you can see the demonstrable benefit. For starter

- USB-C solves the which side to plug in issue

- It's a unified charging port besides data transfer (one charging cable for all devices in the future)

- It's also a unified display port (one display cable for all devices in the future)

Unfortunately, there's no height for traditional USB ports! If you look at the photos, the 3.5mm jack is just barely fitting. USB-A is ~4.5mm tall, while USB-C is 2.5mm tall.

Compare these images:

15" new: http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-pro/j/images/overview/thun...

15" old: http://www5.pcmag.com/media/images/483214-apple-macbook-pro-...

I don't really need a laptop to be so thin, but it's a defining feature for Apple's "premium" feel.

So make it a 2mm thicker and USABLE WITHOUT HASSLE. So it "just works" no matter where you are!

And use the 2mm for more battery.

being a fanboy of a peripheral plug variant is a life I don't even want to contemplate.

For coming up with that sentence, everyone here owes you a beer.

> We're not all you.

Which, apparently, is only an acceptable response if you're criticizing the decision to remove ports. I have literally no need for a 3 1/2 floppy these days, but I'm sure not everyone "is me". Should that be a standard adapter as well?

No, because the floppy is on 1% devices and the usb is on 99,99%, not really a fair comparison

Might be a OK solution if it was not that OSX continuously losing Bluetooth connection, the mouse paring when switching mouse is buggy or you want to play computer games at all.

Many developers use mechanical keyboards - I haven't seen any with Bluetooth (typing this on a Das Keyboard Ultimate)

They do exist! I occasionally use a Varmilo VB87M that connects via BT and charges an internal battery with micro-USB.

There's no reason for this. The switches in a mechanical kb aren't electrically any different than those in a membrane kb.

Not that I'm seriously suggesting it, but it occurs to me that you should be able to make something with an Arduino to make any kb bluetooth.

The point is that they're mechanically different, not electrically.

mechanical difference has nothing to do with their wirelessness or lack thereof

I use the Filco Minila Air. Bluetooth keyboard with all the different cherry switches available.

Not a knock here since I know this is not a majority case, but for marginally quick typists, I would say these wireless/bt keyboards are useless. Input lag is dreadful.

This is the first time I've heard about input lag.

I've used a BT keyboard for years and am the fastest typist out of every developer I've met so clearly something is wrong with your statement.

I type roughly 150 WPM without many errors, though I can burst much higher. The last disconnected keyboards I tried were:

* Apple Wireless Keyboard

* Logitech K 300

* Microsoft -god-knows-what-it-was-called- from back in the day.

In all cases, I experienced stuttering or dropouts of my input at high speeds. This did not happen all the time, but it was frequent enough where I felt the need to go back to a wired keyboard (currently Filco Majestouch). Maybe I had a bad batch, or something was interfering with the signals in my homes. Either way, I don't plan on recommending wireless alternatives for quite some time.

I despise bluetooth keyboards because they always disconnect at the wrong time.

Now, I do stick with wireless keyboards in general, but that's because the proprietary Logitech dongle has never failed me in years.

If Apple can ever make a Bluetooth keyboard that "just works" in the sort of way they're advertising their upcoming AirPods will, including working properly during the boot menu and every time I restart into Windows, then I might reconsider it.

What dasmoth is saying is that there are 4 ports, but they may not be the ports you want.

They're literally all the ports, currently with adapters, eventually likely out of the box (except for ethernet I guess).

> They're literally all the ports, currently with adapters,

If a notebook has got a HDMI port would you say it has a DVI port, because all you need is an adapter?

> eventually likely out of the box

Nope, only power cable and charger in the box.

By "out of the box" I think he meant periferals with USB-C cables, no adapter required.

it does have an HDMI port, and a SDXC slot.

Not anymore. 4 TB3 ports + headphone. (but you can plug adapters into any of the TB3's)

The Air-equivalent only has 2 TB3 ports

oh, indeed - mixed it up. :-|

As far as I got it there is one audiojack on the right, or am I mistaken?

Yes. At least Apple didn't "obsolete" my $300 headphones, or I would definitely be getting a Linux/Windows box for my next laptop.

If you have $300 headphones you should probably look into an outboard D/A converter anyway.

Any word yet on whether it still has Mini Toslink support?

Apple's answer is adapters, ala headphone jack on iPhone 7. Probably not a good answer, but that's the party line it seems.

Now that's super "elegant". You have a very clean device and a big bag with adapters.

I don't think this is going to really be a thing, aside from fairly specialized use cases. Some devices with integrated cables are going to require adapters (and, fortunately, an A->C adapter is tiny, or carry one of those Anker 4-port USB hubs that's the size of a pack of gum), but I'll just buy new five-dollar cables for my type-B devices and not really care too much about it.

Having to re-buy all of them is a drag, I am totally not saying that doesn't suck, but I'm not worried about having a bag full of them.

At some point we have to agree on a standard railway gauge. The transitioning phase will be painful but the advantages are worth the switch.

Thunderbolt is a multiplexed port. Typically, you plug it into your big screen. The external keyboard, mouse and speakers are attached to the big screen. Now your MBP charges from that cable too.

No need to tell me that your use case is slightly different. You can't please everybody.

Edit: I just discovered that the LG screen Apple is selling as a proposed match for their new laptops does NOT have legacy ports on the back, but just more USB-C ports. This seems very dumb. I don't want three $39 dongles on the back of my screen.

Yeah so now you have to carry some sort of multi-adapter in addition to your ultra clean laptop.

> It also doesn't have a floppy drive or an IBM serial port.

So how long do you think until cameras stop requiring a SD card? How long until most peripherals go to USB-C? Any way you slice it, for the next 3-5 years people are going to need to carry around a dongle (or dongles) with their Macbook. Not the worst thing in the world, but certainly doesn't make the user's life appreciably better.

Edit: removed sarcastic response to a comment about a different use-case. Too late to delete.

Sure you can't please everybody. But you can certainly displease most of the people who buy your products.

Not saying the ports is a dealbreaker, just that it makes things more inconvenient for probably the majority of users, with little offsetting benefit.

Adapters and dongles are pretty much unavoidable these days. There are simply too many semi-modern ports still in use for each type to be included on a laptop to cover everyone's needs. It makes sense to move towards modern ports that provide more functionality and better backwards compatibility via adapters. In that sense I'd argue they do make people's lives better because it's a solution to almost every potential problem. Back in the USB2 era it was simply impossible to connect many devices to a laptop. Now we have multi-function ports that can accommodate multiple external PCI-E enclosures.

What's unavoidable about the basic requirement of a USB3 port and SD card? How about HDMI/DP at least? I take it this is a sign every Thunderbolt device is totally dead in the water now? It's not about including a port for every single type, it's about including at least SOME kind of port. It's one thing to make a leap like Thunderbolt 1 and then Thunderbolt 2 and Lightning etc. have been, then it's another to say it's all USB-C now (with no real transition!) and expect anyone to believe you when you say it's REALLY THE LAST PORT THIS TIME GUYS TRUST US. Would it really have ruined the laptop to include a single USB3 port?

Yeah you can. put a USB port on it.

Why waste space with an inferior port? A USB Type A port is useful for backwards-compatibility, but lacks the speed or the Thunderbolt support of USB-C.

Speed doesnt matter when I connect a mouse and a keyboard

You see, that's where you're wrong...

    Insert USB connector
    Ooops, must be wrong orientation
    Insert USB connector upside down
    Nope, that was right the first time
    Insert USB connector correctly

USB C solves this very real time-wasting problem! =)

Except that now you have to buy all new peripherals...

Or you can buy a single USB hub.

And now you have yet another thing to carry around with you. Making the laptop thinner sure made things more convenient...

Because the inferior ports are used by almost everyone? If I just want to plug my laptop into a projector it doesn't matter that I have a technically superior port that I can't use.

Imagine they added a couple USB-C ports in place of the little used Thunderbolt ports and then waited a year to see the usage frequency... I bet the HDMI and USB-A ports would be used a ton more than USB-C.

I'm in no way defending Apple's decision here - I think having no standard USB ports is stupid - but this is kind of Apple's thing.

Apple knows you'll use the standard ports if they give them to you. And that's exactly why they've taken them away. Because it forces users to actually make the switch to something (they think is) better.

I know this, but since they haven't fully committed themselves to USB-C yet so this move feels early. It's insane that you can't plug an iPhone into your brand new MacBook Pro without another trip to the store for a dongle (they aren't shipping a dongle in the MBP box).

Agreed, they could do with some more cohesiveness here.

Exactly.

MacBook laptops have headphone jacks and USB-c connections but no lightning input ports. If I wanted to use my EarPods with the lightning end on my Macbook I'm screwed. Nor can I use the headphone jack or the USB-C ports on the Macbook with my iPhone.

The lack of integration here between Apple's own products is alarming and indicates that a high level someone is asleep at the wheel.

It's worrying. Apple didn't want to drop Lightning from the iPhone, because it would mean losing control over iOS accessories. But now their iOS and Mac products have incompatible connectors, which can't be easily fixed. I mean, they could go for USB-C on the iPhone 7S, but they just told everyone to switch to Lightning headphones. And Lightning, which is essentially a glorified USB 2.0 port, is a waste of space to add to the next MacBook.

What a mess.

One potential solution: ship iPhones with a Lightning-to-USB-C cable with a connected USB-C to USB Type-A adaptor in the box.

This would please everyone, but it'd be expensive.

Because it's still the port that nearly everything uses. USB-C is great and fast but I still have to replace all my cords and chargers because my new phone has USB-C and nothing else I own does. It's the same for a laptop, if everything I have expects USB-A USB-C for all it's great features is a hassle.

When a client gives you documents on a thumb drive when they meet you at the airport 30 mins before your flight, and you sit on the flight for 6 hours with your useless laptop that can't read the contents of the drive, then maybe you'll understand why having the most popular connector currently in existence on your new laptop might be useful.

Just like I don't want a Leatherman® with just a knife blade on it, even if it is slightly larger I want my laptop to have all of the connectors I'm likely to run into over the next N years so that I don't need to carry a separate bag just for the dongles.

Waste space? My current Macbook Pro has 8 ports. The new pro mac pro has 5 ports. The non-pro mac pro has 3 ports. Surely we can fit a HDMI and a usb...

Oh wait, they had to make this thing thinner. Because thinner is more useful, right.

But now you get the silly extra-low-travel keyboard as well, like typing on a table.

All these choices, they don't make any sense.

I just bought their latest phone offering. If I also pick up their latest and greatest MBP, I won't be able to charge the phone with it unless I buy a dongle. I want to buy a nice pair of thunderbolt headphones, this won't work with the MBP. I don't know what the hell they're thinking. Nothing "just works".

Wrong all around. Thunderbolt is a superset of HDMI. Thunderbolt is ALSO a superset of miniDP.

Mac laptops haven't had Ethernet for many, many years, except via the Thunderbolt or USB adapters, both of which will still be possible on this machine, too.

Yes, the SD card reader was left out.

Wrong on USB ports; it's absurd to suggest that "100 out of 100" keyboards and mice plug into USB-A. Most such products these days are, in fact, wireless, and those which aren't can simply use a very very cheap USB-A to USB-C adapter.

and lack of ethernet port was never an "awesome feature", but reason for jokes about adapters for "just $99".

Mac laptops haven't had Ethernet for many, many years

That's true, but only if by "many years" you really meant "yesterday".

The following laptop was still available for order from Apple's website until yesterday's announcements: http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/specs/macb...

Connectivity includes AirPort Extreme (802.11a/b/g/n), Bluetooth 4.0, Gigabit Ethernet, a Firewire "800" port, two USB 3.0 ports, a "Thunderbolt" port, audio in/out, and an SDXC card slot.

Just to point out that assuming "most wireless HID devices are Bluetooth" is likely incorrect - a huge amount of the devices I see come with a dongle of some kind, that plugs into... (you guessed it) USB A sockets.

You are mis-quoting me. I didn't say Bluetooth. I said wireless. That includes the stupid dongle-antennas.

HDMI, miniDP and SD ports should never be present on a "pro" machine of any kind.

"Pro" doesn't mean "more". Sometimes it means less. Like fleet cars that don't have cruise control. You don't need cruise when your job is driving around the city and you shouldn't need a SD card slot for any job that's not photography.

3D Printers typically have SD or MicroSD slots for uploading STLs for unattended printing. Most electronic music equipment like keyboards, synths or sampler pads have SD/MicroSD as well. Hell a lot of shop tools like CNC mills and welders have SD Card slots. Don't most Action Cameras use SD or MicroSD? Most professional grade video cameras will record simultaneously to multiple media formats and one of those is always an SD Card. Anyone tinkering with a Raspberry Pi is going to need an SD reader too. If you're doing any data logging with embedded micro controllers then you're probably using SD or MicroSD as well.

And if your job is photography, you're not using SD.

What do you mean? A lot of cameras today use SD cards, e.g. Nikon D810 / D500.

Probably CF cards. Most pro-level cameras have that as the primary card slot with some also offering a secondary card slot that is SD. Our cameras all do. The standard slot on regular cameras tends to be SD, though.

My professional photographer friend will be mightily pissed off by the loss of SD slots. Every dongle is a bit more gear he has to drag around the city while shooting.

My professional radio guy will be mightily pissed off at losing HDMI. Or rather would be, if he were still bound to the Apple ecosystem - he left it several years ago, never to return, because the price/performance ratio on their desktops went down the toilet when they stopped making user-upgradeable "cheesegraters".

Apple has gradually abandoned the Pro market. I thought they were simply trying to move everyone to laptops, but now I can see that they really have no use for non-iDevices.

Wouldn't you want to rely on an professional external DAC and transfer the audio to your computer digitally instead of having an audio-in port?

I didn't want to call it a mic port for just that reason: it also accepted lossless digital audio.

And only $39 a pop for USB-C Lightning cables.

That's some balls, Apple.

>And only $39 a pop for USB-C Lightning cables.

>That's some balls, Apple.

No, that's courage. /s

Although I'm surprised they left the headphone jack if removing it is supposed to be "the future".

There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines.

> There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines.

I'm amused that I'll be able to charge my Nexus 6P with my Macbook Pro charger (unless Apple really screws something up), but my colleague won't be able to charge his iPhone.

Real courage would be to admit that USB-C is better than Lightening, and to switch their new iPhones to USB-C.

But you can't charge licensing fees on that.

The issue is that Apple is making you a third party customer while they rake in cash from selling a non-standard connector.

Reminds me of Firewire, it should die quickly.

FireWire had higher bandwidth than USB 1.0/1.1. USB 2.0 had higher bandwidth (480 Mbps) in bursts. FireWire (due to the dedicated hardware) could sustain 400 Mbps transfers. The use of FireWire on the first iPods and DV cameras was a good choice.

> There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines.

Given there is now no way[0] to connect one to the other, I'd say you're correct.

[0] Without spending even more money.

It does seem weird that they are shipping iPhones with USB-B cables which can't even plug into their flagship Mac line.

I wonder when the first iPhone will ship with a USB-C connector. Next year? Never?

Edit to add disclaimer: Re-reading the parent and GP, I'm likely misreading the disconnect to mean Lightning -> USB-A cables on iPhones with MacBooks having only USB-C ports. I think they likely meant the lack of 3.5mm plug on the iPhone while still having the plug on the MacBook. I'm leaving the comment as the former is still an interesting question, even if it's not the one originally intended.

Here are the alternatives that I see:

a. Don't switch to USB-C.

This isn't realistic. The change was going to happen sometime, to USB-C or some other improvement. USB-C is a better port, if only that it's smaller and are reversible.

b. Include both USB-A and USB-C ports with the new MacBooks.

I think a lot of people would like to see this. Drawbacks for Apple is that USB-A is larger (impacting design considerations), and removing USB-A entirely puts more pressure on manufacturers to support USB-C.

c. Start shipping the iPhone with both USB-A and USB-C cables prior to the MacBook announcement.

This isn't consistent with Apple's typical secrecy. It's also arguably wasteful.

d. Ship the iPhone with Lightning->USB C cables prior to announcing the new MacBooks.

iPhones wouldn't be able to connect to existing machines without an adapter. Also telegraphs the upcoming change prior to the announcement.

e. After announcing MacBooks with USB-C connectors, provide USB-C connectors for free, or some kind of exchange/buyback program.

While I'm sure this would be popular, it's not very typical of the industry as a whole, not just Apple.

Am I missing any options? Given these, I think the disconnect is inevitable. And given the machines people currently have, I don't think Apple will immediately switch to shipping Lightning->USB-C with iPhones (and iPads). I expect that transition will happen sometime over the next year.

>There seems to be some discontinuity between the Macbook and iPhone lines.

I wouldn't say that, the use case is different. I think wireless makes significantly more sense on mobile.

Laptops are "mobile" but in a different way. they are not meant to be used while on the subway or working out, you sit down pull out your laptop, and if you want to listen to music you can plug in headphones. having to walk away from the laptop while listening to music isn't as important

Monoprice sells 'em on the cheap.

$4 to $9 (non-genuine)

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=USB-C+Lightn...

I find the lack of at least one legacy USB port extremely worrying. Will the following work with a USB to Firewire/USB-C dongle?

* boot from USB (bootable CarbonCopyCloner backup)

* Yubikey (government issued, so I can't easily get an updated key)

* Kensington R800 presenter (supposedly, it's "just a USB keyboard", but I've had it not work via Bluetooth dongle or with the USB to Lightning dongle for the iPad, even though regular USB keyboards work)

USB C is just the form factor. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is commonly supported by USB C ports. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is backwards compatible with USB 3.0/3.1 and 2.0 but not USB 1.0/1.1. You may need an active adapter or hub from 2.0 to 1.1 instead of just a passive cable.

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