Hacker News Reader

Comment by mafribe | Hacker News Reader

By way of comparison: Shanghai's subway was started in the 1980s and according to [1] is now "the world's largest rapid transit system by route length and second largest by number of stations [...] It also ranks second in the world by annual ridership."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Metro

View on HN

China has no NIMBY problem. They can convince anyone with ease. Same with financing.

It would be so much easier without that pesky democracy thing. /s

Not everyone sells. Nail Houses are a real thing. Although, they certainly don't make it easy to stay.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/unbelievable-nail-houses-around-the-w...

Not really a fair comparison. How much does labor cost in Shanghai vs NYC? How much existing 100+ year old underground infrastructure does Shanghai have?

New subway lines in NYC can't use the latest technology. They're being integrated into an existing 112-year-old subway system with the highest station count and track mileage in the world. I'd make a software development analogy, but it would be woefully inadequate at comparing the scope of the situation.

Most of the NYC transit system is also operating 24/7, which makes expansion and maintenance pretty difficult.

How does a 24/7 system make it more difficult to expand?

Well unless your idea of expansion is digging a new hole that's not connected to any other hole, it matters. Also NYCs system being so old, the control mechanisms are horrendously difficult to modify. The entire subway system is basically a mechanical computer so they can't just add another track and then type a few lines of code into a computer to control the new line.

Why are those control systems so old? Well, a 24/7 system is difficult to do maintenance on!

24/7 does raise the bar a bit, but if you have three tunnels not two per line, the problem isn't all that bad. NY has three tunnels as far as I'm aware. In contrast, London's underground has only two which makes it rather difficult to do maintenance at the same time as operate a line.

Digging new tunnels should mostly be independent of operations in existing tunnels.

Sure but there are times when the lines aren't operating, which is a more crucial point than whether there are three tracks (which is not the case across all of NYC).

>NY has three tunnels as far as I'm aware.

Only in some areas, mostly in Manhattan. The outer boroughs, especially in areas where the tracks are elevated, usually only have two.

When major track work has to be done the MTA has a habit of just shutting down a line temporarily. For the past couple of years they've been shutting down the 7 train (which goes from 34th street through Times Square in Manhattan to Flushing in Queens) multiple weekends during the summer, and it has had an impact on businesses.

When you expand a hole, the only connection is at the end of the hole. Also, line expansions usually get connected to existing tail tracks. The 2nd Ave has a connection to an existing line that's not at the end, but that single connection isn't the reason for the cost or the slowness of construction.

This argument is pure BS that tries to explain New York's incompetence when it comes to planning and building infrastrucure by citing its exceptionalism.

No one claimed it's "the reason," and anyone who offers "a reason" for it is lying to you. There are countless interconnected reasons for it, one of which is probably incompetence, sure. One of which is also, in fact, its exceptionalism in being an enormous, ancient, nonstop transit system.

You yourself made that claim two hours ago: "Most of the NYC transit system is also operating 24/7, which makes expansion and maintenance pretty difficult."

Eh, if you read that as me saying that's the sole reason, despite that comment itself being an addendum to another person's comment re: the complexity of this tunnel in particular, then that's just garden variety misunderstanding. Sorry if you read it that way, that's not how I meant it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com