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Comment by LeanderK | Hacker News Reader

I am a German CS-Student and currently renting in a shared flat with 4 other students. We call it WG (living-community) and its really popular not only with students, but i know a lot of young professionals and even middle aged ones that share an apartment (it gained popularity in the 60s, so i think its more of an culture thing that older do not share a flat). If you are in a partnership, you can move out and share a smaller one with your partner, but if your not in a partnership (or not that close yet) i wouldn't want to miss living in a shared apartment. You come home, talk about your day, cook together and on the weekend you can go out together. There is always something going on. I can't imagine living in my own apartment all by myself. Working long and then coming home into an empty, dead, dark apartment with no one to talk to.

Serious question: Why is it not very popular in other countries?

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I've always been the opposite. I can't stand coming home to an apartment filled with people. After dealing with chaos all day, I want to know there's a quiet, tidy place where I can relax. I dislike coming back and having to interact with people.

your not forced to share your apartment, but every constellation have their own vibe. Some are quiet and mature (and most of them are not filled with students, i think thats an age thing)

Yeah, for me sharing the apartment is more of a downside either. I also only know people who enjoy it because they were friends with the other sharers before they shared an apartment.

I have done both (shared an apartment and sole renter). I definitely prefer been the sole occupant. Personal space and privacy, not having to wait for the bathroom, sleep schedules, cleanliness of common areas (especially the kitchen, which by far has been the largest source of conflict wrt to cleanliness).

Of course it is 'wasteful' and expensive to take up a whole housing unit to yourself, but some (most?) people (especially strangers) in the US do not make considerate room mates. Actually probably long term only family members learn to live together in harmony (probably because they have to).

A big reason why I don't want to share a room with anyone anymore is because they don't clean. Every roommate I've ever had (so far ~11 different people), has never actually cleaned. No matter how many times I'm getting upset or having a talk. It just ends up with them washing the dishes/taking out the trash once and I'm stuck cleaning 75% of the apartment. I'm not a clean freak I just hate when the trash is overflowing and there's no clean dishes.

Also, 1 almost never paid rent. Thanks to him knowing the laws better than me, there was effectively nothing I could do. We couldn't afford this at the time so we forced him out of his room and at least got another person in there for a while. Money is a huge concern for me thanks to student debt. So, when your roommate is screwing around and on the verge of getting fired it stresses me out. Right now I have another roommate who was fired and doesn't seem to care much about finding another job. They're paying rent but the landlord is pretty upset about them being chronically late and only paying $10 here and there.

Every year, "due to market forces" they try to raise my rent by $100 per month, $1,200 a year. So I've been forced to move basically every year because why should I pay more when, magically, getting the exact same (but different) apartment in the same building is cheaper...

Thank god this is my last roommate. I'm buying a house and I can finally sit in one spot for more than 365 days.

Why not pay not pay a cleaning lady?

Nice segue into my next point, they almost never want to split the cost on anything. I lived furnitureless for a few years until my cousin became my roommate...

> Serious question: Why is it not very popular in other countries?

Because some countries have much, much worse tenants rights.

I moved from Ireland to Germany and in Ireland:

* There is basically no protection for rent increases, some people are being told their rent is increasing by 50%

* Can't change your apartment. Not allowed to paint the walls, nearly all come with furniture, better make sure you don't damage any of it.

* Oh the landlord/landlord's relative wants to live in the apartment. Eviction time for you.

* You give your landlord your deposit. Let's hope they can find it again if you move out.

* By default, no pets allowed. And many landlords will say no.

* Did I mention about the rent increases?

All of this affects you less if you are in a shared flat compared to renting it alone. The flat can be vastly more expensive as you are pooling the money and flexibility is higher as you have less furniture per person and tend to be able to join/leave shared flats on less rigid schedules. (You can find many in the middle of the month, depending on the holidays etc.)

I lived in a shared flat in Germany which got a rent increase and other than all the young families in the building we really barely noticed it.

> All of this affects you less if you are in a shared flat compared to renting it alone. The flat can be vastly more expensive as you are pooling the money

It can still be a massive impact, because the increase can be split between all tenants. So you might have budgeted €800 per month, and now it's going up to €1,000. You've still had a 20% increase.

Rent increases can only be performed every two years in Ireland from Dec 2015. And you must have 90 days notice of a rent increase. More info on this link:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/...

The landlord's relatives issue is however the easiest way to get someone out of a property and increase rent.

> Rent increases can only be performed every two years in Ireland from Dec 2015. And you must have 90 days notice of a rent increase. More info on this link:

Yep that's a new law and step in the right direction. But it doesn't really limit the amount. So landlords can just batch up 2 years of increase in one go.

In Germany there's a legal limit to how much the rent can be increased in addition to the time limit. And the limit depends on the location, so there are network effects. Additionally rent increases always have to be justified.

And even so tenants can sue against rent increases and occasionally win, resulting in no increase or a lower increase. There's even a Renter's Association that can provide legal aide to its members when there are disputes between tenants and landlords.

In Germany:

- Rent increase limits

- Larger changes need landlord's approval (changing walls and stuff). A lot of smaller stuff can be done on your own and doesn't require asking the landlords. (Many landlords are happy if you want to paint the walls etc., though.)

- Only smaller apartments (often intended for students) come usually with furniture

- The deposit has to be put on a special, locked bank account. The money can only been withdrawn if both sides tell the bank in writing that the rent contract is over

- Depends on the size of the pet

Two more:

- Temporary leases for residential properties are only allowed in very special circumstances

- For the landlord termination is almost impossible

Tenancy law is very one-sided in Germany which leads to a high vacancy rate for residential properties (around 5% [1]). That doesn't mean that there is no housing shortage at the same time.

[1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/258767/umfrag...

How does germany deal with the crazy tenant that destroys the place but still pays their rent? Is it an expensive and long drawn out process involving eviction court or is the security deposit very substantial?

Can be hard to fight for a landlord. Since tenancy is a very asymmetric contract (since one party's livelihood depends on having a home and the other party is merely inconvenienced if there's no tenant), tenants have vastly more rights than landlords.

Terminating a contract can be done if the tenant is behind at least two monthly rents in payments, or if the landlord has personal interest in the property (Eigenbedarf), which is also rather strictly regulated, though (also won't ever happen when your landlord is a company). I'm sure they could terminate your contract if the tenant actually destroys the place. However, they first have to be aware of it (it's not typical of landlords coming to visit, and if neighbours don't complain things can go unnoticed). So usually they won't notice until they move out, although they're liable for the damages caused. The security deposit won't usually be enough to cover extensive damage, though, as it's in the order of two or three monthly rents.

I wouldn't call it "merely inconvenienced" depending on the landlord and situation.

Elderly people who are renting out a spare unit usually can't afford large amounts of damages or court fees. Also if your mortgaged backed it can be fairly financially ruinous while your waiting for repairs to be done and you have no rental income. People who also ruin places tend to be judgement proof too.

I'm guessing Germany is more civilized than SF, so these worries are not as high, but I suspect it's part of the reason why places like berlin have supply issue despite a %5 vacancy rate in some buildings.

Actually IIRC the law was changed so tenants only have to make sure the walls have a neutral appearance (i.e. usually white woodchip wallpaper) when moving out, so they're pretty much free to decorate the place as they want as long as they don't outright demolish or damage the walls.

There used to be a requirement for tenants to renovate the apartment (i.e. thorough cleaning, new wallpaper and white paint) before moving out but that requirement has been reduced to "besenrein" (literally "broom clean", i.e. no rubbish or dirt). Damage to windows and existing fittings etc is deducted from the deposit but tenants have the right to a formal inspection with a signed report to avoid dubious claims.

The "Kautionskonto" (the special bank account) is widespread but not universal. However there are also co-operatives that invest your deposit and actually pass on the interest to you when you move out (these apartments are rare though).

Some specifics on pets: fish and caged pets (e.g. rodents) are generally allowed within normal quantities. Cats require approval but disapproval is practically impossible unless there are very good reasons. Dogs always require approval and disapproval is more likely. Many contracts explicitly allow specific pets (including dogs). If another tenant was given permission for a dog, it's hard or impossible to make a case for forbidding a similar dog. "Kampfhunde" (attack dogs) may be more problematic.

> However there are also co-operatives that invest your deposit and actually pass on the interest to you when you move out (these apartments are rare though).

This is not optional. It is required by law. Interest from deposits belong to the renter.

Sure, but the difference is that they actually invest it. Normally the money pretty much just sits there.

Given the size of the deposits, and the ROIs of available low-risk investments, does the difference really matter?

Skip a single CappuFrappeGingerPumpkinLatte (or what people buy in cafes in SF) and you just got more money than any investment on the deposit can ever make.

Depends on the size I guess, but generally that feeling of "oh, look, my money did some work for me" leaves tenants with some happy thoughts on moving out.

> Many landlords are happy if you want to paint the walls etc., though.

Many landlords scam tenants into "refreshing" costs of the apartment. The cost of the lawyer to litigate is accidentally of the same order of magnitude as the cost of the "refreshing" so many tenants just give up (unless their daddy is a lawyer).

> The deposit has to be put on a special, locked bank account. The money can only been withdrawn if both sides tell the bank in writing that the rent contract is over

Not in high demand areas i.e. any major city including Berlin.

> Not allowed to paint the walls, nearly all come with furniture, better make sure you don't damage any of it.

This is the part I hate most about renting. Either leave the apartment empty, or at least give me furniture that isn't broken IKEA shit.

To each their own. After graduating from school, the last thing I had any interest in was a shared living arrangement.

I live with a friend for about 8 years now and it's okay, but I wouldn't do it again when we finally part ways some day in the future.

That's all well and good as long as you're a student, or partying your twenties away and as long as everybody in the house gets on .... I've done this, and while it is good fun in parts the downsides become downright tiring.

You don't have to party every weekend. Generally you choose to live with people who roughly share your lifestyle.

Indeed, that's why we rather partied every weekday.

i recently searched for a new shared apartment and there were plenty of offers that were looking explicitly for professionals and not students because of the reasons you stated above. I also know of older ones living in a shared apartment (though not as a rule). I can imagine moving together with a partner or switching apartment because of the reasons you mention above, but living alone is not something i want to do. But i understand there are reasons some don't want live in a shared apartment.

I think what i want to say is that for most living in a shared apartment is not a thing out of necessity anymore, but out of choice

In the US I think it is still a necessity for many people because a lot of cities are so expensive, but if money were out of the picture I do think a lot of people would still choose to live with their friends.

> partying your twenties away and as long as everybody in the house gets on

Why the assumption that all roommates everywhere are partying?

Just speaking from my own personal experience ...

Working long and then coming home into an empty, dead, dark apartment with no one to talk to.

For me that is by far my dream scenario after a day at work.

>Serious question: Why is it not very popular in other countries?

Very popular at least in London due to high rent prices.

This is pretty popular in the US. Most recent college graduates I know live in a shared house or apartment.

Popular by choice or financial necessity?

Yeah I was about to add a note that money is usually more of a motivator than desire for roommates. If you live with Craigslist roommates, it's probably because you couldn't afford not to. But quite a few people live with friends and enjoy it, it's pretty common to not want to live alone.

I would argue by financial necessity, but it depends on the region I guess.

Some of it is by choice. From what I've seen, even people who can afford living on their own eventually get roommates once they realize that it's hard to meet people and make new friends post-college.

Both. The marginal cost of an additional bedroom is miniscule compared to that of a studio/1 bedroom apartment, and having people to hang around with/socialize/cook is a plus.

I'm sure a lot of that is out of need rather than desire to do so.

This is called "having roommates" in the US, and it's quite common, especially among students and younger people.

thank you. I googled 10 minutes for a translation, but since its not a direct translation it was really hard to find.

> Serious question: Why is it not very popular in other countries?

Nudity is frowned upon but everyone will be half-naked or naked at home. Hard to share a living space.

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