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Comment by yason | Hacker News Reader

Most men have not ever considered becoming a cosmetologist. How is that not a problem? And why is it somehow a problem that women don't consider becoming a programmer?

Both sexes could make those choices and that's far more important than whether they actually do it.

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It's not a problem in cosmetology, but it's a huge problem in nursing and elementary education. Qualified people are being discouraged from fields that would benefit greatly from their participation, based solely on their gender.

I can't ever remember being "discouraged" from nursing or teaching. When does this happen? Did you have an experience in school where you were literally told that you shouldn't become a nurse or teacher?

http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=333168

The discrimination against male nurses isn't overt, it's much more subtle: male nurses are the subject of jokes and people act as if there's something inherently effeminate and un-masculine about the profession. There's a general societal attitude that "nursing is for women" that certainly discourages men from entering the profession.

The profession's title literally means "to suckle at the breast." If it were commonly called something like "doctor's aid" I'd bet it wouldn't be as pronounced a problem.

If that were true then you could check it by looking at the male nurse prevalence among non-English speaking countries.

In French, Italian and Spanish a nurse is some variation on "infermier" coming from the same root as the word for "sickness", and they don't have higher rates of male nurses.

In German it's the truly awesome word "Krankenschwester" meaning something like "sickness sister". Obviously this is gender-specific and has nothing to do with my point, but I just learned it and felt the need to share.

I tried a few other languages in google translate but didn't know them well enough to figure out the etymologies. If anyone knows of non-gender-loaded "nurse" words in other languages it would be interesting to hear them.

I've gathered that the continuing witchhunt against pedophiles keeps a lot of men out of teaching, actually.

This is why I am a programmer today. I was strongly pushed by guidance counselors + my parents to not pursue a teaching career purely because of the risk involved. My Mother works as a teachers aide, and often mentions the extreme levels that male teachers will go to to avoid any implication or suspicion. The mere rumor of anything would be both career ending and life threatening.

That's a terrible shame, but I hope you find your current career fulfilling. I hope we can all move past gender biases someday.

People who say that women are discouraged from computer science don't mean that women are literally told they shouldn't become programmers, either.

Most men have not ever considered becoming a cosmetologist.

I suspect that has something to do with many men avoiding jobs that they think might call their sexual orientation into question. Many men have gone into cosmetology and done quite well. The reasons so few women go into CS has little to do with worries about their perceived orientation. You are comparing apples to oranges.

You don't think it has more to do with the fact that most men have little interest in womens' makeup?

I find it hard to believe there are many men out there who'd really like to be cosmetologists but are afraid of being seen as gay. But if you're out there, feel free to reply!

They're probably on cosmetology message boards, not HN.

I like the idea that the cosmetology boards are filled with male programmers who really wanted to be cosmetologists, and HN is filled with female cosmetologits who really wanted to be programmers.

Cosmetology is a pretty broad term it doesn't just cover "women's makeup." Cosmetologists also do hairstyling, mani/pedicure, and electrolysis for example. You can have flexible hours, instead of working in a cube staring at a screen,you spend your days talking to people and making them look good, you don't need to go to school very long to get your license, and while the wages aren't all that great, if you do a good job and build up a loyal clientele, you can do alright for yourself. Do you honestly believe there aren't some men, even straight men, who wouldn't be interested in a career like that?

I think I get it now:

1) Men's poor choices == men's irrational hangups.

2) Women's poor choices == men's systemic sexism.

Classic strawman argument. (Straw woman, dare I say?) You simplistically assume your opponent is attacking men, when the issue is much deeper.

Both women and men have the same root for their poor choices: irrational hangups fed by systemic sexism. Both men and women disparage male cosmetologists, and praise females. Both men and women praise male programmers, and disparage females.

All I did was re-iterate the parent comment in blunt terms, which is supposed to have the effect that it is that comment that is the strawman.

I'm making no argument directly, strawman or not.

These statements are presented as fact but are simply not. What is this "systemic sexism" we're agreeing on being present? I see little to support it within the context of this discussion.

All I see is an argument that is essentially:

1) There are few female programmers, 2) The cause is sexism, 3) We must address this.

I take issue with point 3 because point 2 has insufficient evidence to support it.

All I did was re-iterate the parent comment in blunt terms

No you did not. What you did was restate my comment in broader terms, and then attacked your restated version of my comment.

I think I get it now: 1) Men's poor choices == men's irrational hangups. 2) Women's poor choices == men's systemic sexism.

Don't put words in my mouth and then attack me for what you said. It's intellectually dishonest, the definition of a strawman argument, and I want no part of it.

I suspect that has something to do with many men avoiding jobs that they think might call their sexual orientation into question.

i.e. Many men have an irrational hangup about their perceived sexual status when choosing jobs.

The reasons so few women go into CS has little to do with worries about their perceived orientation.

i.e. There is another issue - inferred - that keeps women out of CS classes.

You are comparing apples and oranges

Exactly what words am I putting in your mouth?

Of course women aren't worried about their perceived sexual orientation, but they certainly are about their image (perceived "nerdiness", etc).

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