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Comment by StephenAmar | Hacker News Reader

Isn't this system similar to the one we have in France (and other parts of Europe: Livret de Famille.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_register

Yes, I think most of the developed world has something like a citizen register/family register. I think it is the Anglo-American culture that is the interesting diversion from the norm. For some historical reason, they have aversion to id numbers and central registers.

And yet, they can't help it, hence NSA. I doubt that anywhere in continental Europe there is a full-scale surveillance program like administered by NSA or GCHQ (or maybe we are unusually good at keeping secrets -- really doubt it, though).

>And yet, they can't help it, hence NSA. I doubt that anywhere in continental Europe there is a full-scale surveillance program like administered by NSA or GCHQ

Just reminder that KGB is still a thing and they have SORM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM

Well, yes. As I argued elsewhere, we Russians are culturally closer to Americans than to Europeans, for some unknown reasons.

Isolationism and exceptionalism. See UK and Japan for other examples. Though after the beating received in WW2, Japan's is subdued.

> or maybe we are unusually good at keeping secrets -- really doubt it, though

France had two different services dedicated solely to internal intelligence/spying (until they got merged in 2008): the "RG"[0] (general intelligence) and the "DST"[1] (territorial surveillance directorate)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_centrale_des_renseig...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_de_la_surveillance_d...

I don't think "having a service" has much meaning in this context? OP surely knows that the countries he referred to actually have intelligence services. Germany has at least two (BND and MAD) and depending on what exactly you mean more. I would say the point was to which lengths those services actually go.

We just collect the results from five eyes in exchange for the data that we do collect and other favors.

I'm not sure if there's a sardonic tone I'm missing from the last sentence, but for Americans, it's mostly just government run id numbers and central registers they have an issue with. Credit Card Accounts, Store Accounts, Website/Social Media Accounts, just put something free next to it and most Americans are more than happy to give you their life history.

But if the government is doing it, it's completely different. I understand that the basic idea is choosing to submit info versus being compelled by Government, but it's the exact same amount of collection and information, often more intrusive. It's an aversion to government, not an aversion to the idea of ID numbers and registers. There is probably a healthy level for this, but often times I hear about people taking it too far. My friends who have done census work have some of the worst stories about people trying to have a Braveheart moment when he had only just introduced himself.

> Credit Card Accounts, Store Accounts, Website/Social Media Accounts, just put something free next to it and most Americans are more than happy to give you their life history.

Which is somewhat ironic since the government pays for unlimited access to all that "privately" held data.

It's easy to understand an aversion to being taxed and drafted.

A Sears storecard can't send you to Vietnam.

Here in Britain we have compulsory registers of births, deaths and marriages and anyone can query them. You don't get a number or ID card but the data is collected.

It doesn't seem especially different to the continental systems.

Yeah, exactly like in Spain, where all these things are done in the Civil Registry (Registro Civil). I mean, the article is like a huge WTF... somebody needs to travel / read about other countries, etc...

Yes, in fact that's why I ticked when I reached

> The system can thus seem schizophrenic when viewed through the lens of Western values.

given it would seem entirely natural to most mainland europeans.

The whole article is trying to paint very anglo-centric values or concepts as western, it's just weird.

It sound exactly like the 'burgerlijke stand' (civil status) we have in the Netherlands.

In Spain we used to have the same system, called "Libro de Familia". It was abolished years ago because it simply does not work in a world where people don't live in the same place their parents do, people can get divorced and remarry several times and shared custody is a thing. Nowadays each person has his own birth certificate, marriage contract and the like.

That's not the same, because only you have it. In Japan it's the administration that holds the information (and gives you certificates when you need them).

Yeah i think its about the same thing.

The equivalent Swedish "Proof of Person" is handled by the tax office.

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