Vim: So long Pathogen, hello native package loading | Hacker News Reader

Vim: So long Pathogen, hello native package loading

shapeshed.com

110 pointstambourine_man38 comments

I'm genuinely curious why you'd really want native package loading in vim, except for purity's sake. If you're already using third party packages, is it much worse to just add a package manager? I've been using junegunn's excellent `vim-plug`[0] for a while now and it's worked really well. Some of the benefits I can see over the native approach here:

- Declarative configuration suitable for version control.

- Parallel installation/update.

- Run scripts or makefile on install/update.

- On-demand loading based on open filetypes.

[0]: https://github.com/junegunn/vim-plug

Part of the issue is that vim’s ages-old plugin model uses a really unusual and frustrating architecture. I think the purpose here is to make the baseline package system cleaner, so that more advanced package management systems don’t need to reinvent the wheel so much.

Personally, none of the bullet points you mentioned matter to me at all, so I'm glad about the improved native package loading. Plus, I've always found it weird to need a package in order to load other packages (in a remotely sane way).

As your comment implies, vim's improved package handling is still pretty simplistic compared to some existing plugin managers, so there's really no reason _not_ to want the functionality in vim. It's not like it was a huge addition to the code that's now slowing down your system, or messing up existing plugin managers. Similarly, it's not going to cause fuller-featured plugin managers to cease further development.

On-demand loading is useful, because it speeds up launch time. You could have hundreds of packages installed, but if they're all on-demand, launch can still be blazing fast.

I think you're missing my point. I wasn't arguing against more feature-filled package managers. I was answering cjhveal's genuine curiosity about why you'd really want native package loading in vim.

Because Emacs made it.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Vundle: https://github.com/VundleVim/Vundle.vim (13k stars)

This is what I use. I like that I don't have to mess around with any git submodules or clutter up my dotfiles repo. Vundle handles the cloning of the plugin repo. It's really hands off.

It's been linked in this thread already, but I would recommend changing to vim-plug since it has less clutter, see https://github.com/junegunn/vim-plug/wiki/faq#migrating-from...

I've also run into coworkers having some weird transient issues that were fixed when I got them to change to vim-plug. I can't say for sure that's what fixed it of course, but it's now a bit of personal superstition.

I too use Vundle and have nothing but positive things to say about it. It's really magical. It also works equally well on Windows and Linux.

Yep. I'm in love with Vundle. Been using it for years, and it's part of my dotfiles repo. One of my first steps on a new system is installing git and vim-nox, cloning my dotfiles, and running BundleInstall.

I'm usinh https://github.com/Shougo/neobundle.vim though I see now that has been superseded by https://github.com/Shougo/dein.vim

I'm struggling to see why i would want to use the new built-in functionality instead of Vundle. Vundle seems a _much_ nicer solution to this problem.

I'm confused. The fine article itself mentions Vundle?

Last year I wrote my own Vim plugin manager vimanage [1] that uses Pathogen and was wondering if it will still work with Vim 8. Apparently both Pathogen and vimanage work (meaning Vim didn't break the backward compatibility) but I like the idea of losing the dependency to Pathogen so I guess I have some work to do.

[1] https://github.com/selectnull/vimanage

I've been running a bare vim since I've switched laptops and enjoyed the simplicity.

It is time to reintroduce some of the fanciness I used to have configured. I was looking forward to trying out Neovim but meanwhile Vim 8 has come out. Which way should I go now?

Since it looks like we're heading into a period of good competition between vim and neovim, I'd give neovim a serious try if you haven't already. It has a well-developed async architecture that most major plugins take advantage of, if sensible, and it has embedded terminal functionality. For the moment, vim 8 doesn't have async plugins to match, so after trying neovim for a while, you can switch back to vim 8 once its plugins catch up and get a better comparison.

I have been using NeoVim for half a year and have not looked back. It is backward compatible (completes Vim test suite successfully) and brings some other goodies, such as async jobs (I know Vim 8.0 has these but they have been in NeoVim since I switched) and a great terminal emulator. It has much better defaults that I did not know about when I was using Vim. Honestly - give both a try - installing NeoVim, all you have to import your settings is to symlink your .vimrc to .nvimrc, as far as I remember

Thanks, I didn't about the terminal emulator! Now that I launched it via vsplit and :set modifiable - how can I switch back to the second buffer?

<C-\><C-n> leaves you in normal mode again, and then you can navigate as usual.

Note that you can bind something like `jj` to this command in the terminal in order to more easily get out of terminal insert mode. Use `tnoremap`

Use <C-\><C-n> to get back into normal mode so you can use <C-w>w and and friends. Or you can use your mouse since Neovim by default does 'set mouse=a' iirc.

you can use terminal-bufffer settings too:

:tnoremap <Esc> <C-\><C-n>

:tnoremap <A-h> <C-\><C-n><C-w>h

:tnoremap <A-j> <C-\><C-n><C-w>j

:tnoremap <A-k> <C-\><C-n><C-w>k

:tnoremap <A-l> <C-\><C-n><C-w>l

If you've been running bare vim, then using either will be fine. Unless you're planning on turning your bare vim into a rather heavy IDE, you're not going to really experience much difference between vim 8 and neovim.

Edit to add: or if you really need a terminal emulator

I've made the, apparent, mistake of having some python plugins in my vim setup. The packaging of vim7 for Ubuntu 16.04, the vim8 PPA both end up leaving me with all sorts of errors when I save files, particularly Python files. I had been using gvim in the terminal because of how it handles mouse events, but now I have only one choice for the vim that has Python in it it seems...

I had tried neovim in the past and just couldn't get it configured, so I went back to vim. That was maybe 6 months ago though.

So I nuked all my plugins and that's making it better but I'm missing my python lint and DNS serial number update helper, etc...

A few days ago I tried figuring out vim8's plugin stuff, and either the searches I'm doing are not right, or there is very little documentation/discussion on it, because I just didn't get anywhere.

So now I'm trying to figure out where I go from here... Possible choices:

- Neovim, since I have to "start over" with vim anyway. - Figure out the vim8 plugins, spending more time with it. - Atom? It looks sweet from my playing with it, but I'd probably only use it for serious coding, which I don't do that much, I'm a sysadmin and always in and out of editors in the terminal. - Something else (Wingware, Pycharm, ?)

Looks like I need to add something to my schedule to figure this mess out. I'm leaning towards figuring out neovim, because it has a great velocity.

If you just need a vim with python, it's fairly simple to compile from source. You can start by modifying what's given here: https://github.com/Valloric/YouCompleteMe/wiki/Building-Vim-...

About the package system, yes there really isn't any documentation at all because it doesn't do all that much in the first place. I would suggest just using vim-plug or another package manager.

Also, there really isn't anything to learn in Neovim. Mainly just try out the terminal emulator and come up with some terminal maps.

Sorry, I'm an operations guy, so compiling from source is never simple. :-/ (I know most people don't understand this, but in my world "./configure; make" just leads to a world of pain)

vim-plug sounds like something I should investigate. I hadn't heard of it before now, I had been using pathogen for the last year or two.

I've been playing a bit with neovim and have it working happily now. Not sure what the problem I was having last time I tried, but it was just a nightmare (granted, I had only given myself 15m to try it).

I would recommend neovim. Configuring it should be as easy as symlinking your vimrc and .vim directory: https://neovim.io/doc/user/nvim.html#nvim-from-vim

For packaging I suggest using vim-plug. It's super simple and super fast: https://github.com/junegunn/vim-plug

I've been using Spacemacs(http://spacemacs.org/) for some time now, and like it quite a bit.

I haven't looked at spacemacs before. Looks interesting as an option in the various vi variants.

The `:CheckHealth` command added in Neovim 0.1.5 should help with python/ruby/general sanity checks. It has more improvements in 0.1.6 which will be released soon.

:checkHealth is awesome!

Did you try installing a vim with python support (e.g. vim-nox-py2)?

What am I missing by not using a manager?

I've been doing something like this

  set rtp^=~/.vim/bundle/ScrollColors/

for each plugin, and it works wonderfully, doesn't complicate things, plus never broke.

Granted, I don't auto-update plugins but go into each git repo and checkout the desired release tag (or some revision) if I need to.

What are you missing? Some convenience at the price of another dependency. A hip name. That vague feeling of hipness. Anyway, packs now are the official way to manage your rtp.

Mostly convenience and not loading plugins that won't be used based on file type, etc.

What are the benefits of the native package manager over something like Vim-Plug? Because as I know it can't download/update/delete/snapshot/diff packages from vim.

Your account appears to have been banned. I vouched your recent posts but you'll want to email the mods.

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