How to handle career demotion as 40-year old Software Engineer?

It's pretty rare for anyone to be hired into a Google/Facebook at Staff Engineer or above. (Indeed, while I was at Google they stopped hiring anyone in for Senior+, after a number of problems with "downslotting" where they promised roles to people who didn't perform in those roles.) The idea is that there is so much proprietary technology in any big company, and so much tacit cultural/relationship knowledge, that success at any of the higher levels is far from assured. Instead they were hiring in at SWE3 but with financial compensation competitive with your previous position, with the expectation that if you're good you'll rapidly get promoted to the appropriate level, and if you're not you'll leave.

Staff engineer is also a pretty high-up level. Not sure exactly what your responsibilities were at Intel/Cisco, but at Google Senior Engineers regularly take tech lead & architectural roles. Staff engineers do this + first-level management responsibilities, while Principal was roughly equivalent to what a Director would be. I'd heard (from a coworker who was the youngest person to make Director at Oracle) that Director at Oracle is roughly equivalent to Senior SWE at Google, thanks to title inflation.

Hell, I left Google for what's either "CEO" or "unemployed bum", depending on how you look at it. IMHO the idea that you could have a monotonically-increasing career path died in the 1980s; everyone I know in upper management took several steps backwards to get there, usually joining or founding a startup as an individual contributor, spending time as a consultant or EIR, switching industries, or going unemployed until someone in their network tapped them for a new role.

Thanks a lot for the detailed response. I didn't know that Staff at Google is such a big deal. EIR aslo sounds like an interesting idea.

Anecdotally, my personal network and I have found the reluctance to direct hire into senior dev jobs the same across the country in RTP, NC. I'm not sure it is really related to proprietary tech here, but rather reflects uneasiness in hiring orgs to trust their hiring process to actually identify senior-level/capable devs.

Hiring groups are just much happier to hire at lower levels and promote up to retain better devs.

You are asking HN ... as a community we are pretty biased toward start-ups. In many ways you seem ideally set up for technical leadership in a start-up.

[1] You have led teams creating key portions of really successful tech.

[2] Money is not a concern for you. This means that you have "infinite runway" to initially explore ideas as long as it is software oriented. This also means that you have the luxury of delaying or being picky about taking on investors.

[3] Real business problems - you get to choose

[4] Risk, reward - although you are unlikely to succeed, you might be one of those who succeeds, either in building a nice sustainable business worth a few million or maybe even create a high growth "unicorn." In any case you will almost certainly stretch yourself in many different ways.

I spent some time working at a bank during my early career. There is a saying about banks "they have more VP's than coffee pots".

What I learned from this experience is that title is meaningless.

As a fellow 40 year old programer my advice to you is as follows. Ignore that title, take what you think will be interesting and be a leader from your level. Make your self a promise that no matter what your going to stick it out for 2 years, and if in month 18-20 your unhappy start looking.

You may learn that your happy writing code and not dealing with people. You might get the battlefield promotion back to where you were. You might find that the young engineers hang on your every word and come to you for advice and you can give it freely as your a leader, a mentor and NOT a boss.

Lastly, if you go in as an engineer and not a manager, your going to find yourself with a bit more free time (and a lot less bullshit) -- There is freedom in that, and frankly you can make use of that time to scratch other professional itches or find a new hobby!

Often when people talk about demotion, they implicitly mean a drop in salary.

Since you specifically say that you are not concerned about the money aspect. Your post sounds like you have an attachment to whatever title you currently have.

If you are truly interested in working on "real business problems" - then as a consultant, with a bit of networking, you will find plenty of them. Wouldn't that satisfy you? I seriously doubt that partners at consulting firms think of themselves as having been demoted. To the contrary, most are pretty pleased with themselves.

I suspect that you have grown fond of your impressive title at a recognisable big company. You are worried about what people will think of you if you have a less impressive (in your opinion) title at a less well known company. Dare I ask whether there is any social pressure from friends and family?

> I suspect that you have grown fond of your impressive title at a recognisable big company. You are worried about what people will think of you if you have a less impressive (in your opinion) title at a less well known company. Dare I ask whether there is any social pressure from friends and family?

OK. I admit that's one part of it.

Without going into details. I have lead teams which have owned some really big pieces of very successful tech products. And I am proud of that. I am unable to find something equivalent for my next role.

If you think of your time on those projects, did your employer hire in a more seasoned IC to lead you or was it more likely that your manager asked what you needed to be successful and hired in the best / most senior IC's to help you achieve your goals?

Because assuming allocation is done at hiring that is probably where your job title is coming from.

It could make more sense to goto a startup where you get the problems (Probably not the scale) and autonomy / opportunity to own and build out a particular piece of the puzzle

Starting your own consulting gig could be a good start. You'd be shocked how bad some of the consulting companies are, a good architect could clean up.

It does not feel that exciting. I don't primarily, work for money anymore. I have owned components of big tech products throughout my career, consulting sounds like surrogacy at this point.

Did I miss something which I should be looking for?

Maybe, maybe not. While working at this large corporation did you develop work patterns and skills that are currently favored? (Agile being the code word most use) Are you conversant in the aspects of the stack that your employers are looking for?

So here is the thing, if you haven't, then you're coming in as basically a much more junior person than you might think. You are going to have to learn the new stack or the new skills, and as with any hire, there wouldn't be an existing track record to show how well you might do at it.

Here is the second thing, you're self labeling as a software architect / tech lead. One of the things that I have seen is that the idea of architect and tech lead varies quite a bit from company to company. If you're characterization of what your role is, is one that doesn't exist in the company where you are interviewing, then you're being slotted into the "we have to retrain this guy for one of our roles."

And the final thing, if your title is affecting your perception of your contribution, especially at a smaller company, then you've got to work through that. The only use for titles in a company of fewer 50 people is so that customers and partners can get a sense of your decision level. For you personally, your role has to come from inside yourself. If that is the kind of person you are, then you will be that kind of person in your new job and people will know you for it. What they call you in the offer letter is often irrelevant. In the Bay Area at least that is typically code for a salary range.

Don't get hung up on the title. Talk to the hiring manager about the kinds of things you would expect to be doing at the company and the ways you would expect to contribute. They will pick a title that reflects that.

> if your title is affecting your perception of your contribution, especially at a smaller company, then you've got to work through that.

It affects my perception of self-worth and self-confidence.

Do you think the newer companies may have a negative preconception as it relates to older big tech companies? Or that companies like Google and Facebook might operate their engineer hiring in a pipeline fashion, with adjustments only being made when a position involves big hires from similar companies? Lastly, perhaps they're bias and think that more tenured engineers like yourself possess what they might identify as bad habits that they would have to break?

I'm not agreeing with or accusing you of any of these things, I'm simply spitballing here.

Good luck.

Those who felt that I might have bad habits would have rejected me and that's fine. My problem is that even those who offered me a position are offering a demotion in my career.

I've a few friends move down to the said big co.s .. Just the talent of the folks in those big cos is alone worth it to take a risk; if you end up working in a good group; it will be very intellectually satisfying; loss of social status is something you'll need to bite.. but its a good risk to take in my opinion.

you'll have to find a lower status company than your previous to up-rank. I.e stop looking at the class A and look to class B where'll you'll find many wiling to give you salary and label.

If it's "want my cake and eat it too" scenario, then I think it'll ultimately come down to dice. You're leaving with your skills but without the years of trust you've built up. You've fundamentally less to barter with on the outside than in.

> I received offers from most of them

Congratulations, not an easy task. The hiring practices of these companies are brutal (specially for senior engineers).

If I had your skills and experience I would start a startup offering help to 30+ engineers who are currently looking for a new role and need help passing these brutal and soul crushing interviews and sometimes need help even landing an interview in the first place.

Well congrats to you.. I'm one such Tech Lead at one of those two co.s and pretty much in the same boat.. but making into th e big 4 at any level is pretty hard...

It is very unlikely that you will find a title better than what you have. Legacy companies have these handcuffs that works for a while - but when you have to leave, you almost won't find a matching title (Very rare IMO). You should leave a contact info, if you want anyone to reach out to you personally.