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Comment by msravi | Hacker News Reader

It's somewhat surprising to me that the "block editor" thing is so popular in these beginner kits. My son (almost 11) was introduced to it at school[1] and did not find it intuitive at all. We then got an Arduino and started to write some simple programs, and he took to it right off the bat. The Arduino programming platform is simple enough to get a 10-year old started off and scales so well to "professional" projects. IMHO, schools should probably just use the Arduino platform. But I guess different kids think differently, learn differently, and what's intuitive for one might not be so for another.

[1] http://biboxlabs.in/

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I think 11 is already too late for those blocks. I did some lessons with Blockly [0] in my son's class last years (kids of 6 and 7), and that worked fine for the oldest/smartest kids, though it was still a bit too hard for some. I plan to do it again this year (ages 7-9) to see how that goes.

But after that, I think it's time for some Ruby or Python. I did Basic at that age.

[0] https://blockly-games.appspot.com/

I don't have a source, but my guess is that it's much more intuitive for kids to program in an imperative style rather than anything else. So provided that the base API that you provide them is not too complicated, my guess is that even kids in the 7-9 age bracket will "get" a programming style that goes turn_right(), forward(10), turn_left(), stop(), rather than the block editing.

Blockly actually gives the code resulting from your block program.

I think block editors work fine in a very simple situation where you have a very limited set of primitives you can use, like in the blockly exercises. I think Scratch already has way too many options to get lost in. At some point, typing becomes easier than searching through several lists of blocks.

You know, what way is there today to get the simple experience of a C64 or a ZX spectrum? Several things there:

- Instant on with a high level language interpreter

- Simple architecture/ISA one can grow into

- Maybe a monitor/assembler available from the interpreter

- Powerful graphics, with simple things possible from the language, and full power available from machine code

This would be perfect for around 8-10 year old. I can't tell if I'm underestimating kids but it feels like starting with a Linux or comparable modern OS/machine just has too many layers of abstraction to get that "cozy" feeling of a micro.

Most of that can be achieved with the right programming environment on a Linux or other modern system. I guess Scratch tried to be a new kind of programming environment, but it's too limited to scale to more serious use.

Processing / p5.js?

https://processing.org/tutorials/gettingstarted/

http://p5js.org/get-started/

Web browser + view source + notepad is definitely the modern introduction to coding.

Minecraft, with a computing addon?

Maximite? http://geoffg.net/maximite.html

> The Colour Maximite is a small and versatile single chip computer running a full featured BASIC interpreter with 128K of working memory and eight colours on a VGA monitor.

> It will work with a standard PC keyboard and because the Maximite has its own built in SD memory card and BASIC language you need nothing more to start writing and running BASIC programs.

> The Colour Maximite also has 40 input/output lines including an Arduino compatible connector. These I/Os can be independently configured as analog inputs, digital inputs or digital outputs. You can measure voltage, frequencies, detect switch closure, etc and respond by turning on lights, closing relays, etc - all under control of your BASIC program.

It's showing its age a bit, but still sounds useful.

I get the nostalgia for something like the c64 - but I think Alan Kay has a point, paraphrasing Montessori - that if we want to prepare someone for (a better) future we need to place them in that environment. So we need an intuitive, powerful environment suited for parallel processing (starting small, say a thousand cores or so). That's if we want to prepare them for the future.

If we're content with giving them some "best of 80s"-ideas, I think racket and/or Pharo Smalltalk is about as good as we can make it.

I'm guilty of stooping down to less powerful and futuristic systems myself - I find python to a very good mix of intuitive / simple and "real world" useful.

Other than that, I guess playing with forth in a boot loader is pretty good if what one really wants is "close to hardware":

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Forth_Lessons

About 15 years ago I started with my graphing calculator. Dont know if those have changed any over the years.

It was texas instruments flavor of basic. Simple enough to get started, automating my math homework :) Just move right to get to the edit 'tab', and select the program you want to edit. Right once more to create a new one.

By the way, if any of you reading this happened to be the manager who decided to spend a few extra cents including explanations for if/then, for loops, variables, etc in the back of the manual, THANKS! You are probably the reason I have the career that i do today. Once I realized that an evening spent programming meant no math homework for a few weeks, I was hooked!

According to the Calliope FAQ and Mission Statement, it's targeted at "3rd grade and up" (meaning approx. 8-10 year old) and in addition to the block editor supports mbed, with Micro-Python support planned for fall 2016.

The unfortunate thing is that there seem to be a lot of adults who think they can't learn to program without those blocks.

There are two things to untangle here:

1) Yes, agree that "blocks" editors are not terribly useful. I brought an Arduino redbot for my daughters (10 and 8) and after a couple of failed attempts at scratch-like programming, they actually found the C code immediately easier. This is so unintuitive! Ideas?

2) that the micro:bit is worse than the arduino; I don't think block programming or sourcecode has any bearing on the choice of board. The micro:bit seems a bit more powerful than an arduino, but not actually powerful enough to impress me.

I really think that a much more powerful Raspberry-PI-style board but with decent robot handling would be infinitely better to getting kids hooked.

It was a year ago now but my own disappointment with the redbot: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/136598180858/wher...

Agreed. The good thing with the Arduino is that there is no OS to navigate - there are just 2 simple functions (setup and loop) where you put whatever you want to in, with some very simple intuitive functions (digitalWrite, analogWrite, ...). Compare that with what you need to do with the Pi for bare metal[1].

[1] http://www.valvers.com/open-software/raspberry-pi/step01-bar...

A nice arduino-like "very simple intuitive functions" API ought be perfectly possible on a raspberry PI, and there ought be no need for bare metal programming of the PI to make that happen.

When I blogged about how hard it was for me to find Raspberry PI robots in my country there was a discussion about it on proggit https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3zf04e/where_a...

The crux seemed to be that nobody is doing real time kernels on the raspberry PI, and this is just a lack of software not an unsuitability of the hardware.

I guess this just underlines that people have a £5 Zero and aren't scratching a "kids could learn to program by controlling robots with this!" itch?

> This is so unintuitive! Ideas?

Are they strong readers? Code as a narrative of what happens might be easier to grok for them than blocks which can have a spatial component to how they proved.

No, they are not even native English speakers :)

They started pointing and clicking on computers before they learned to read anyway: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/19500788060/my-te...

That was several years ago, and the intervening years they unlearned everything by focusing on the ipad youtube :(

I don't think it's all that unintuitive - I would prefer C to some graphical programming system. Think about it: if the gui programming system was any good it would be used in industry!

Beyond the spreadsheet - I don't think we have any successful "graphical" programming systems. And spreadsheets are more of a "4gl" than graphical. Maybe add Hypercard. And Smalltalk (with the object browser etc).

But the only real use of "graphical/iconographic" programming is for those that can't read and write. So, 6 years and down? That is, until someone makes a graphical system people will want to use at all ages and level of proficiency.

Ok, I guess I can think of a few others: 3d studio max could be seen as a form of graphical programming. As could premier/final cut and flash. And rich manipulation of rich media to "render" new rich media (interactive or not). But notice that with the partial exception of flash we don't call this "graphical programming".

Could be because they had watched you at work, and thus recognized things even if they didn't fully understand it.

My idea: just another instance to use this quote.

> Linux supports the notion of a command line or a shell for the same reason that only children read books with only pictures in them. Language, be it English or something else, is the only tool flexible enough to accomplish a sufficiently broad range of tasks. -- Bill Garrett

Or maybe it's just that kids are smarter than we like to think and are especially good at noticing what's going on when we try and set up no-failure situations for them, they notice that we expect so little of them we even created this giant special drag-drop-the-blocks interface that we never actually use ourselves just for them and their simple minds. (I'm not a fan of spoon-fed educational substitutes...)

The Scratch-like drag -and-drop programming environment is only one of several. Code Kingdoms Javascript supports both block and text, and transitioning from one to the other, MS Touch Develop is text based, and then there's Python:

https://www.microbit.co.uk/create-code#

You can also program the hardware directly.

Yes, the PlatformIO IDE (C/C++) also supports the micro:bit.

Yeah, the block editor is a quick win for younger children, but it's not good for teaching more realistic approaches to 'proper' coding; heading the Java or MicroPython route seems to be more suitable and engaging for older pupils.

The guys who ported MicroPython to the micro:bit have done a great job but, regrettably, by the time the MicroPython framework has been loaded on the micro:bit, the amount of room left for more complex programs is a bit tight.

Arduino is used in UK schools, but the one I hear a lot about is Crumble as it's designed to build motorised things very easily: http://redfernelectronics.co.uk/crumble/

(Disclaimer: I am a volunteer STEM Ambassador working with UK schools and educators in the fields of electronics and computing. I have no business relationship with Crumble)

Your script can be up to 8k in length. You have 16k RAM to play with.

Obviously, this is a very constrained device and just getting a full re-implementation of Python 3 (sans standard library) is testament to Damien George's engineering brilliance.

There's still lots of work to be done and efficiencies to be made. This is only but the start of the project.

There are some quite interesting / complicated examples in the source code:

https://github.com/bbcmicrobit/micropython/tree/master/examp...

Hope this helps!

Don't worry, you're preaching to the converted!

What is also important is the number of kids you are trying to teach at a time. Kids > 8 then blocks mean that everybody is somewhat productive through trial and error, even if some are held back by the interface. Try 30 young kids with a standard text based language and you end up achieving very little in a single class.

Especially if you have someone who is more hands on getting stuck on a cryptic interpreter error.

We are all likely familiar with the non-informative "syntax error".

All too familiar :) Semicolons are kind of an un-intuitive thing for the novice. And languages have more complex rules than "put semicolon at the end of every statement" :/

"non-informative "syntax error"" We as an industry really need to improve error messages. I got a new chip and pin card the other day, and forgot you had to go to an atm to activate it first. Error 2392729???? How about, "please activate at an atm"?

Maybe we need an "Informative Error Messages Day" every year, where we are all forbidden from working on anything except improving our products error message.

And i think that was what drew many over to Linux from Windows. At least now you got some error messages that made sense (most of the time, i have seen the kernel barf up non-informative oops related to DRI because of something Mesa was doing).

The thing with block editors is that they're easier to teach. Bare in mind that most school teachers aren't going to be proficient in an imperative language. Some barely cope with MS Word and Excel.

It's very easy for us to harp on about how language 𝒙 is easier than Scratch et al, but we are able to debug programs that fail to compile or execute as expected. We are able to assist with writing the syntax from memory and we can set up the development environment (code editor, language framework and run time, etc). This is all stuff that block editors make easy.

It's also worth noting that most primary schools - which is the sort of level that Scratch is introduced - don't even have their own on-site IT assistant so if the teacher gets troubled by software then they often have to wait a few days for their contracted support to next visit the school.

You may also avoid the frustration that is "syntax error" when missing some ; or similar somewhere.

> if the teacher gets troubled by software then they often have to wait a few days for their contracted support to next visit the school.

If it's to do with the curriculum, that's what the STEM Ambassadors are for too - we're often only an email away.

https://www.stem.org.uk/

When we go from lessons on flow diagrams to a block editor it goes OK.

When we introduce Python they struggle to get matching " and ( and indentation.

Sometimes it's about the pace of the lesson, what do you have to teach 30 kids in one hour? If you spend that hour explaining why the shell is different to a file 30 times, your lesson is over.

I find block editors, and more generally visual languages great, or awful, depending on the application domain. Scratch is an example of a great fit. The Lego Mindstorms environment is an example of a bad fit IMO. I'm not too sure what they should have proposed instead though.

Block style programming works great with kids that are just starting to read (4-6), and paremeter location and nested control structures seem intuitive.

I wonder how well kids take to tech depending on what their parents or siblings are involved with.

What about 5 year olds? Lots of them have trouble typing in properly.

They did fine with the ZX Spectrum, where keywords autocompleted on a single keypress (eg, at a point where it was valid, pressing p got "PRINT" or j got "LOAD"). Every key had legends showing what it would produce. Great for a 5 year old who could read but not spell.

This is not my experience of five year olds. I am a teacher.

And I was the 5 year old referenced. :)

Typically for a 5 year old I'd point them to something more like Scratch Jr, or the themed PBS KIDS Scratch Jr. http://pbskids.org/apps/pbs-kids-scratchjr.html

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