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Comment by geerlingguy | Hacker News Reader

Could it be that TDD vs. tests-after-code is a highly personal thing? I personally find it easier to write good tests after I've coded something functional. Before hand, I know one or two fuzzy ideas of what I want to accomplish, but I can't list out the concrete, real-world test scenarios until after I've coded something, poked and prodded it, etc.

But I know some people are wired differently; they'll think a lot more about scenarios first, then code after they have everything accounted for. For them, TDD as a philosophy seems more fitting.

I think the chasm exists between _untested_ code and code that has tests. I've never understood the seemingly-religious zealotry behind TDD as an XP practice. Just like pair programming... if it works for you and your coding style, awesome. But don't force it down my throat or act like it's the One True Path to clean code.

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TDD vs. test-after-code is a small distinction.

80% of software development is designing correct abstractions/interfaces/APIs. If you have the correct abstractions, everything else is easy by comparison. And both tests and code are fundamentally founded on these early design decisions.

So whether I do TDD or tests-after-code, I'm confronted with the 80% first: designing the interfaces (either in writing or mentally).

Naturally, I never get this part right at first, and so I wind up refactoring a lot as I go along. ("Build one to throw away", I believe this has been called.)

Now in my experience, TDD requires me to refactor more during this process than tests-after-code. But suit yourself. Changing the order within the last 20% won't be earth-shattering one way or the other.

This is why designing the interface in a language with a powerful type system provides the same quoted benefit of TDD. It helps you think about the interface before you move to implementation.

In my experience, using a type system to do this requires much less effort and refactoring.

I am a big fan of "testing via types".

Unit tests can demonstrate that my code is correct; it can say nothing about how my code is used by others.

In contrast, a type system can extend those protections downstream.

(Yes, yes, unless you go way off the deep end of dependent types, you still need tests. But a powerful type system can systemically prevent a huge number of very common bugs.)

My take it on it is that it can remove most of the boring bugs you would get in a less strongly-typed language and leaves you open to the interesting bugs (eg, logic bugs).

As for dependent types, I'm not sure that even then you would be able to ensure that, say, your cache is correctly invalidated.

Additionally, strict TDD teaches you lessons. Once you've used it enough, chances are that you'll be making better interfaces even if you code first.

> This is why designing the interface in a language with a powerful type system provides the same quoted benefit of TDD.

Yes. TDD came from developers who worked in weak/dynamic typed languages.

It is mandatory to discover errors, that are otherwise discovered instantly for free by compilers in the stronger typed languages.

Strangely, the TDD folks never outline this point.

I've found implementing test as I go along writing a new API help code quality and speed in two ways: I catch my own logic bugs early and the self-feedback I get from writing the tests helps me to write a more usable interface.

I never catch all the design errors with non-coding design work - this gives me the high level view which is critical - but there are always some logical errors and bugs I've failed to model correctly which early tests catch.

But yeah, the optimal design-implememt-test probably depends probably very much on the implememter and on the problem to be solved.

The third meta-advantage is that if I'm writing hobby code for myself and the profject is large compared to the weekly time allocations available in my sparetime I get something to help me remember where I was (say a month back) and gives me something to compile and run immediately (which is a huge motivational booster for me).

> 80% of software development is designing correct abstractions/interfaces/APIs

Not sure if that claim is wrong or not, but I will state it anyway. If you write in TDD manner and you decide to change the API/abstraction a little bit because of something you didn't think of, you will have to correct both tests and the code. When you do test-after-code it's much easier (IMO) to hit correct abstractions and interfaces because you are working on a living thing, not some artificial test cases you have to figure out. Then you write tests to ensure those abstractions are respected and in working order.

TDD people, please correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: disclaimer: I'm a front-end developer working mostly in React and Redux

> if it works for you and your coding style, awesome. But don't force it down my throat or act like it's the One True Path to clean code.

This applies to so many things in Software Development - text-editors, variable names, plugins, architectures, operating systems...

...life

nope - vim

Ed.

Edit: ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! [0]

[0] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html

cat.

butterflies

Ahh... good old M-x butterfly

Well, things start to get complicated and messy when the team size starts to grow and the technical debt starts to mount. Thats when it needs to goes from hacking to engineering.

For me it's a highly situation-dependent thing.

Sometimes writing tests first helps me think about the high-level design of my code. Other times I've got to try a few things before I have any idea what the code should look like, and writing tests first would just create a lot of extra code churn. I feel that, as time goes on, I'm getting better at anticipating which situation I'm in. I also switch back and forth between the two testing methods even more rapidly.

Yes.

When doing UI code (with something like React) it's next to impossible to do TDD - you can't know the structure until you actually implement it.

If I'm fixing a bug in some sort of non-ui code, I often find TDD to be very helpful. Create a test case that demonstrates that failure, then fix the implementation to make the test pass.

I'm not sure that testing a bug, even before writing the code that fixes it, qualifies as TDD.

> Sometimes writing tests first helps me think about the high-level design of my code.

I'm personally a fan of "readme driven development" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1627246). It's a nice compromise between tons of upfront planning and nothing at all.

That's an interesting discussion and article. I sort of do this already for new features. You really feel the power of it, when after writing a lot of stuff you realise that there's a hitch, rewrite from earlier and shudder at the thought of the mess and wasted time if code had been written. In its final state the document becomes a series of steps that I can check off, which is helpful in a motivational sense.

I had thought of involving users in the design of new features via the support forum but I'm afraid of how that might turn out. A readme type document would probably be about as good a way of doing it as any though.

I find the same thing. It's almost like writing an essay, I need to sketch out an outline first, which is often getting just far enough to convince myself that the approach is reasonable and there aren't any surprises ahead. Once it's time to crank out the details of individual sections, the work often starts to feel monotonous and that's where TDD can be invaluable for helping me to stay focused and comprehensively work through all the edge cases.

When I first learned about TDD I thought the same (order of test and implementation does not matter that much). Yet when you do the TDD steps

* write a failing test (RED) * implement minimal functionality so all tests pass (GREEN) * REFACTOR

and overcome the initial revulsion you will get a ton of benefits that you didn't know existed. I'll first give a few that are more on the code quality side

* You have a complete test suite, without redundant tests * Tests are usually not that mock-focused [] as the implementation-after-test didn't introduce random roadblockers for testing. tests do assert the relevant properties (tests-later code bases often have code bases that don't assert much or properties you don't care about). * When you write your test first, you basically write a small example how it feels like to use the API you have in mind for solving your problem. This drastically improves quality.

Some non-technical benefits of TDD

* I find TDD helps me tackle bigger code-pieces where I just don't know how to start implementing. * TDD is programming gamification. You are rewarded with regular, small successes of having added another test and made it green. So whenever you ask yourself: OMG, have I made any progress in the last 3 days, you can actually tell: Yes, I added 15 tests and made them pass - I objectively got closer to implementing that feature. * Not an issue where I work, but have often heard about this from other places: If tests are there first, no one can tell you to not spend so much time on writing tests. TDD-style is protecting your boss from shipping that car without having the brakes checked. * The same line: TDD gives explicit room for refactoring.

[*] obviously one cannot avoid mocking especially when dealing with resources external to your code base, yet I have hardly seen TDD-originated tests that mocked

> I find TDD helps me tackle bigger code-pieces where I just don't know how to start implementing.

This made me think. There are many axes of software development, and aside from TDD/non-TDD axis, there's also the bottom-up vs. top-down axis. By top-down, I mean you start with a skeleton that provides an interface to the outside world, and the fill in the implementation details. Bottom-up, on the other hand, means you first write some routine that you know will be vital in some form or another, but without immediately seeing how it will be hooked into the interface to the outside world.

Top-down has the advantage that you can have something runnable quickly, and it seems to me that TDD requires top-down development.

But somehow, there have been times when I was working on a piece of code and it just flowed more naturally in a bottom-up manner. It has happened that I went for a day (and very rarely longer) working on tricky algorithmic code before I even tried to compile it for the first time.

This is definitely something that I try to avoid when I can, it's just that sometimes it works out that way. And it is totally incompatible with the TDD way of doing things.

How often this happens surely depends on the type of project you're working on. As usual with these things, it seems like TDD can be a useful inspiration, but it shouldn't be taken as dogma.

This reminds me of https://twitter.com/marick/status/787402452848873472

I dont think writing Tests first makes you work top down or bottom up.

If you want to work bottom-up (I like to work bottom up) you just start by writing tests for your bottom up functionality.

And of course I don't want to impose TDD on others, but I would like others to try it out sincerely (recommending kent Becks book for this. Don't do it without guidance, many people who reject TDD after trying it out were doing some kind of Test-first method, but didn't get the benefit because they were not aware of stuff like get one test at a time to complete, etc.)

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> shouldn't be taken as dogma.

Life in software engineering becomes much more relaxed when you realize that every piece of advice and technology is in fact based on dogmas and is not based on sound empirical, statistically relevant evidence :-) (apart from the pure math part).

It is just really really hard to study software quality in an objective way that satisfies scientific criteria. So we are kind of stuck with hearsay in IT

So TDD is kind of dogmatic. So is OOP, or the rejection of gotos.

The "lightbulb" moment for me was doing what Kent Beck suggests, and writing down the list of tests I "knew" I needed to write, before writing any tests. That's a very similar step to diving into writing the code first, "knowing" what it ought to look like, and the ideas feeding into either step would be the same.

Writing a list of tests first is quicker, though, and working through the list, updating it as I learn more, tells me that my initial ideas were wrong often enough that I'm almost convinced that the true secret of TDD isn't the tests at all. It's that checklist, and the purely mechanical process of working through it, checking them off one-by-one and fixing it up as I go along.

To relate this to your situation, I often find that I'll only get started with a fairly fuzzy idea, and the checklist will be short. I can still expand it as I go, knowing that I'm working on as solid foundations as I can given the constraints.

I think there's a danger in writing off practices like TDD with "if it works for you..." because it avoids discussion of why it works for some people and not others. That in turn gives people license to ignore it simply because it's unfamiliar, and the brain doesn't like unfamiliar things by default. That's a shame, because for some of those people they'll be stuck in local optima, writing off the one thing which could break them out of it.

> But don't force it down my throat or act like it's the One True Path to clean code.

When I was a programming beginner and started learning about TDD, I was always thinking how soon to start using it because everyone says it's such a good idea. If you would search anything about it, you'd rarely find a resource not marvelling at its surprising benefits (at least, that is how it was few years back). Granted, it may have its merits but is it really a good idea for everything? No way!

One of the anti-patterns I have seen in programming world is how everyone jumps on adopting / advocating a 'good' practice without understanding how it fits the project. I wrote about this a while back[1]. Cue in — git flow, TDD, not using goto, DOM Parser instead of RegEx.

[1]: https://shubhamjain.co/2015/10/26/imperfect-best-practices/

Reminds me of a comment by Harry Roberts on CSS methodologies https://twitter.com/csswizardry/status/539726989159301121

    Modularity, DRY, SRP, etc. is never a goal, *it’s a trait*.
    [...] understand that they’re approaches and not achievements.

> I think the chasm exists between _untested_ code and code that has tests.

IMHO untested code isn't always a bad thing. Anything related to privacy, security, or data integrity should be heavily tested.

But beyond that, code should need to earn its tests. (At least in a web startup context.) After all, the core of agility is being able and willing to go in a different direction when something isn't working.

I think there are a lot of nuance to this statement. After a few years on the start up scene, I believe that if you are using a "duck" typed language your core concepts should be tested without exception (for example rails and django models). The farther you get away from these core concepts, the less your tests need to be there and the more likely that code is to change.

In addition, if you are truly in the earliest stages of your startup (pre-revenue/traction) the tests are not needed -- but you have to be _very_ aware that you are making a tradeoff for sheer velocity and you will have to pay the price later on. I've seen too many startups fail to pay the price and it comes back to haunt them and reduces their overall velocity.

If your code doesn't have tests then you can't refactor because you don't know if you broke something. Getting the right level of tests is important, they should check the interface and not the implementation, otherwise I agree, you can't refactor anything. But if you test your interfaces the same way that real code would use it then it actually makes you more agile, because it gives you the peace of mind to do major changes.

"Tests can make refactoring much easier" is a statement I could easily buy into.

"If your code doesn't have tests then you can't refactor" is pure dogma and trivial to falsify (go on, refactor some untested code now!). More likely to introduce bugs? Perhaps. But relying on that absolutist statement about refactoring will alienate me every time.

Let me clarify: you can't refactor without a very awake QA team, because you have no idea what your changes may have broken.

And a passing test is a guarantee for a working feature across an entire platform. Every. Time.

>Could it be that TDD vs. tests-after-code is a highly personal thing? I personally find it easier to write good tests after I've coded something functional. Before hand, I know one or two fuzzy ideas of what I want to accomplish, but I can't list out the concrete, real-world test scenarios until after I've coded something, poked and prodded it, etc.

I generally find it better to engage in "top-down" development - specification->tests->high level code->low level code as it's cheaper to fix mistakes at higher levels first.

If I'm doing purely experimental code though - where I'm not sure of what I even want or what the output should be, tests are just a waste of time.

It also loses its effectiveness the more declarative the code is. If I'm essentially tweaking configuration or HTML there's no point.

> they'll think about scenarios first, then code after they have everything accounted for.

I'm one of those people. But I find it hard to believe that a test suite can reflect everything I understand about a problem domain. Focusing too much on unit tests makes it difficult to find the general rules that govern the behavior of a system. Have too few unit tests, and they won't capture all the subtleties and corner cases. Have too many unit tests, and they won't fit in your head.

To me, it depends on the problem. With some problems, I'm not sure yet how to implement it, but I do already know what the result should look like. That's an excellent case for TDD. You get to work on the problem, refine your ideas about it, and you start with the part you already know: the results.

If you have no idea what the results should look like, then TDD is pointless.

For me it also depends on the task - I never do a strict TDD - but often I like to start with some tests.

Sometimes it is hard to write the tests, but it is easy to see if your code works - sometimes it is easy to write the tests, but not the code.

I would call it 'do first what is easier'.

But it is important to write the tests quickly after you wrote the piece of code - so that you don't forget something.

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