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Comment by wallace_f | Hacker News Reader

I'm currently on a trip around the world, going over 1 year at the moment and loving life, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I've met countless 20-somethings doing the same, and a surprising number of mid-career professionals, and they're all European.

I have yet to meet a single person in almost 2 years of international travel that is from the US and was willing to take a break in their career.

I hope this American culture shifts towards Europe in the future. Americans are left out of this experience and cultural exchange, and seen as choosing to rather stay at home to toil over their bank accounts. The professional and personal benefits are more than adding 1 more year of your working life will ever get you, and besides, I want to see the change because I have a vested interest in finding a job when I come back.

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The vast, vast majority of Americans simply cannot afford to take extended time off to travel internationally, and of those who can, the current job market is such that for those that return, the prospects outside of the tech industry are not good. Employers here generally do not look favorably on large employment gaps, and the social safety net is pretty sparse if you come back and need time to get situated again. Comparing European workers and American workers in this context is not very fair - the situations for each are quite different.

I think your other points are good, but I disagree here:

> The vast, vast majority of Americans simply cannot afford to take extended time off to travel internationally

It can be done very economically; students with almost no money do it, staying in hostels, taking trains, etc. I know one guy who worked his way through, at least to some extent. If you have kids and a mortgage, that's a different story.

Americans have student debt.

It's actually very possible for Americans if they plan correctly. From what I've seen, only the salaries near London approach anything close to the typical six figure rates seen in the US.

It should be pretty easy for any developer in the US to sock away several hundred thousand dollars by mid 30s. I did it.

Simply continuing to live as I always have, regardless of raises, has made the most difference. Granted, children and marriage are two things that I'm very unlikely to do anytime soon, as I feel it is simply too risky in the US as a man.

But yes there is something in our culture that impedes travel and long vacations like this. I have visited many places off the beaten path, and one thing I've noticed is that Europeans (especially Germans) really seem to get around the world - they prioritize it, while in the US I've only recently taken my first vacation in many years where I did not bring my work alone with me. I think the lack of job stability really makes Americans feel anxious about employment. One can lose their job here and be out the door in 30 minutes, no warning. There is absolutely no safety net for males in US society, and one trip to the ER without health insurance can screw you over financially.

But like I said, salaries in the US seem really high, so it can certainly be done. In fact, I prefer this to the EU system as I am in full control of my life, and by saving more money that isn't taxed as much, it's possible to retire far earlier than engineers in the EU or elsewhere.

"Typical" 6 figure rates are in or near the 90th percentile of income. Cost of living in most places with those 6 figure salaries are in the 90th percentile too.

> It's actually very possible for Americans if they plan correctly. From what I've seen, only the salaries near London approach anything close to the typical six figure rates seen in the US.

After 14 years in Dallas I have never broken the six-figure barrier. I am only about to do so because I am moving to NYC.

> It should be pretty easy for any developer in the US to sock away several hundred thousand dollars by mid 30s. I did it.

I have only earned several hundred thousand over the course of my career. It would not be easy for me to save it even if I wanted to spend less on more immediate gratification.

"... to the typical six figure rates seen in the US."

You need to get your news from more than one source. HN is not a representative sample. I can't overstate this.

I can tell you that having lived in the US and Europe it is MUCH easier to travel as a European resident:

* 21 days of vacation every year, by law, that people actually use. 6 weeks for some places, like Germany (how do you think it is they travel so much??) In the US if you get vacation it's common to be shamed by your coworkers and bosses if you use more than a few days. A friend of mine works for a company with "unlimited vacation". He just visited Morocco and Portugal for a few weeks and was chided by colleagues for it. He is an incredibly talented and in-demand engineer, though, so he can tell them to shove it. Most people cannot.

* You can leave your job and not be stuck with terrible health insurance (Obamacare is a start, but when you're a footloose 20 something what the hell good is a plan that costs $150 a month and has a $6000 deductible?)

* If you have student loans at all, they're generally quite small.

* The social safety net is stronger; jobseeker's allowance, the dole, etc. are not as hard to qualify for as unemployment is in the US. Think to yourself - in the US, the worst possible consequence of taking a vacation is that you'll be sleeping in gutters after you get back and your boss fires you to set an example. In much of Europe you collect benefit (modest, but still something) and live with roommates.

* Cars - it's a lot harder to save when you're basically forced to spend $250-$600 a month for basic transportation. You might point out that there are alternatives, and there are, but in the US it means paying a TON for rent in order to live in one of the few nice neighbourhoods in the country.

* Most of all, not everyone is a developer. Perhaps people who make $30k a year should be able to take some time off, even for a modest vacation near home, without being in abject terror of seeing their lives ruined for it?

> * Cars - it's a lot harder to save when you're basically forced to spend $250-$600 a month for basic transportation. You might point out that there are alternatives, and there are, but in the US it means paying a TON for rent in order to live in one of the few nice neighbourhoods in the country.

As a soon-to-be resident of the NYC metro area, I was shocked to discover that the monthly costs of those alternatives effectively added up to a car payment.

Perhaps the car payment, but consider: fuel, depreciation cost (almost always overlooked), insurance, parking, and maintenance.

If you can live without a dedicated car (taxi, Uber, car-share, rentals), it's often a surprisingly affordable option. The critical loss is in the flexibility of auto-based transport, though again, that hinges greatly on the alternatives offered by the location.

Humans existed without cars for nearly 200,000 years.

> Perhaps the car payment, but consider: fuel, depreciation cost (almost always overlooked), insurance, parking, and maintenance.

Well, depreciation is irrelevant if I consider the entire car payment a sunk cost. Anything I get for selling the car is a bonus. Otherwise yes, there are additional costs.

> If you can live without a dedicated car (taxi, Uber, car-share, rentals), it's often a surprisingly affordable option.

That is the part that hinges on location and the trade-off between transportation costs and domicile costs.

> Humans existed without cars for nearly 200,000 years.

Humans existed without cities for about 197,000 of those years, but I'd rather not go back to that.

I think most decent engineers in even small markets in the South and Midwest US could expect $100k or so by 30 years of age.

In contrast, I see salaries in even expensive cities like Amsterdam, Madrid, Munich at far less. When you add in the higher taxes in the EU, were talking significantly less.

And yes, for many people in the US, things like health insurance, cars, and college debt are big problems.

Here's a little secret, though: in the US, if you play the game correctly, you really can win. That means you actually buy catastrophic health insurance even when you're young and probably won't use it. It means taking out half your college credits at one of the community colleges that are very inexpensive, then finishing up with a lucrative degree at the public college. It means buying a used, modest and dependable car, and not a fancy German cash cow or huge SUV.

Most Americans follow everyone else blindly into massive debt via conspicuous consumption and poor planning. The EU tries to make sure nobody gets thoroughly screwed, and that's admirable. But it also seems like one is pretty limited in how far up or down they can go.

I've lived in the EU (and other places far worse), but I still think America is best for someone like me that doesn't want the typical 9-5, wife and kids, etc. But if I did, then I'd prefer the safety net of the EU. I'm also privileged, I can admit. For some Americans born with a disadvantaged lot, the US is a cruel shit show

> There is absolutely no safety net for males in US society, and one trip to the ER without health insurance can screw you over financially.

Why don't people in the US simply found a safety net among peers with comparable motivational and educational background instead of crying that the state has to provide it?

We have that. It's private health insurance. However, as we've gotten pretty good at identifying high and low risk individuals it means many people are unable to access it when they need it. This is why health insurance may be better provided by the state (though really the jury's still out on that one).

In general stuff like this suffers from the free rider problem - after all, who in their right mind would pay to build a lighthouse when anyone who wants can enjoy use of said lighthouse without paying?

> In general stuff like this suffers from the free rider problem - after all, who in their right mind would pay to build a lighthouse when anyone who wants can enjoy use of said lighthouse without paying?

That's why I wrote "among peers with comparable motivational and educational background [and/or shared values]". This should reduce the free rider problem a lot.

Because of the enormous adverse selection problem inherent in starting such a collective.

Who is most likely to join? Someone who intends to take benefit from it, or someone who is hoping to never use the benefits?

I think it's not about affording traveling itself but to be able to afford everything that comes with it, like consequences, plugging in back upon return, picking up career etc.

Economic travel is meaningless if you have debt payments to make, or if you can't afford a plane ticket. Banks don't care if you want to take a year off - they still want their money. Roughly 70% of US undergrads come out of college in debt, with that debt being an average of over $35k. Most of these graduates spend at least all of their 20s paying this off, and then have to juggle mortgages and family obligations for the next 20 years.

And of course there's that widely publicized study showing that 63% of Americans can't even afford a $500 emergency bill to repair their car or pay for a medical procedure. Buying a plane ticket to Europe and meals/lodging, even at grocery store & hostels level, is out of the question for average non-tech worker.

My point is that if you look at the percentage of Americans who can afford to take a year off work, afford to get to and live in a location like Western Europe, and still have a decent chance of regaining a good job upon return, you've easily excluded 90%+ of the population.

There are plenty of Americans roaming the planet just like the Germans, Australians, the Brits and the Japanese. I have met them in South East Asia, South America, India and Africa. There's no shortage of them. They were all taking sabbaticals or time off or whatever you want to call it. All of the places I just mentioned are relatively cheap to travel compared to Europe or the US.

I spend about $20/day over the long run in my trip, and I find cash-in-hand jobs quite easily to keep me cashed up without really dipping into my savings. More importantly, I try to make a lot of friends, which helps more than being affluent.

Can I ask what your career was before leaving? I've worked very hard to get to where I'm at, solving machine learning problems for a great company. But I really just want to quit and travel the world. Leaving behind all the effort I just put in seems like such a shame, I'm not sure if I could get back to where I am now. Where have you travelled? Are you going solo?

I've just returned to the US after 12 years abroad. I've met many Americans who are doing the same, traveling. What they do is save up, sell everything, then quit. Their social safety net is their savings account and, occasional, paid work as an English teacher.

Since I've come back I make sure to include PTO in any salary negotiation. No point in making a lot of money if you can't take the time to enjoy it.

My family has just done 2 years at sea. The gaps in employment were easy to explain.

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