Are we really still having this discussion?

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1255858

I'd like to think that both sides are clear -

Steve Jobs - "We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform."

My point of view said well by the author of the article I linked - "Crappy developers will make crappy apps regardless of how many layers there are, and it doesn’t make sense to limit source-to-source conversion tools like Unity3D and others. They’re all building apps through the iPhone developer tools in the end so the situation isn’t even comparable to the Mac where applications can completely avoid using Apple’s frameworks by replacing them with others."

At this point I think we've reached the point of "agree to disagree", where neither side is going to change the other's mind.