Why Tokyo Is the World’s Best Food City | Hacker News Reader

Why Tokyo Is the World’s Best Food City

luckypeach.com

68 pointsthebent60 comments

If you don't read the byline (Momofuku's David Chang), you'd be excused for thinking it's written by a doofus who's not really worried about actually constructing an argument as opposed to lining up opinions.

I like Chang, but I can't take his piece seriously with a sentence like this:

> I genuinely don’t give a fuck about any other place on the planet. I just want to go to Tokyo to eat. Look at the other food cities in the world, such as Paris. Can’t live there, because I don’t want to eat only French food. It’s great for a week and then you know what I want? Anything but French food.

I believe he occasionally frequents hip modern French restaurants in Paris, many of which are essentially focused on taking a modern twist on classical "haute cuisine" and making it less pretentious and even more adventurous. So it's a little rich to see him go on about Tokyo when after going to his favorite Ramen joints there a few years ago, I still couldn't find one that could touch my experiences at Kotteri Ramen Naritake in Paris — a decidedly Japanese export run the way a Ramen joint is supposed to run and yet the best Ramen I've ever had anywhere in the world.

Tokyo is an amazing place to eat. No argument about that. But putting down other culinary destinations just because you easily get bored of the main food style there is a little lazy. I've had amazing food in Tokyo without trying to play it safe. Yet, I could flip his "argument" about French food in Paris and say that when you get bored of Japanese food (or Japanese reinventions of other foods), then maybe Tokyo would get old for you.

What's far more likely is that he (Chang) has an intense emotional attachment to Tokyo's food scene and that it gives him perpetual pleasure. And that's great, for him. For anyone curious of his claims, just watch Mind of a Chef's Japan episode with David Chang, it's a marvel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cJm1zny0Bw

PS: Yes, I'm French, from Paris, and just as fucking biased as he is.

> when you get bored of Japanese food (or Japanese reinventions of other foods), then maybe Tokyo would get old for you.

No, sorry, Tokyo really has amazing food of all kinds and not mere "reinventions". Italians here admit the Italian food is better on average than in Italy, the American food is better here than back home, etc.

I won't get into French food in Tokyo, which is superb, I will leave that comparison to you.

If you haven't been in Tokyo, you really have no idea what you're talking about. There are more Michelin starred restaurants here than Paris, London, and New York combined. And more importantly: only half the Michelin starred restaurants in those cities are any good. On the other hand, only half the good restaurants in Tokyo accept a Michelin listing because the other half doesn't want to deal with the tourists it brings. So the real ratio is even more lopsided.

Ps, Momofuku is overrated and David Chang's personality is tedious, but that doesn't make him wrong about Tokyo.

To each his own. I'm French, I've lived in Paris and in Japan (in Kyoto with occasional stays in Tokyo). I'm biased though because even though I'm French, I tend to enjoy Japanese food more than French food.

I'd say that Tokyo has a much more diverse choice of food and that the best non-japanese restaurants in Tokyo tend to be as good or better than the restaurants in their respective countries. In France, a lot of foreign restaurants tend to adapt their food to the local palate whereas in Japan, they are more likely to be authentic.

Paris is also a good place for food but outside of French food and modern cuisine, there's not enough diversity and it gets a bit boring for me after a while.

Kotteri Ramen Naritake are decent but not great. Most ramen shops in Nakano are better than them and it cannot touch my favorite ramen place in Kyoto.

That said, I tend to think that everyday Japanese food in relatively inexpensive eateries is much better in Kyoto than in Tokyo. And it's a better place to try Kaiseki food than Tokyo.

And the author's argument are not great either. Convenience store food is not that great. I'd never qualify their egg-salad sandwich as amazing when there are so many kissaten that make way better egg-salad sandwiches. Convenience store food is at best decent.

> So it's a little rich to see him go on about Tokyo when after going to his favorite Ramen joints there a few years ago,

Having travelled all over Japan, in my experience the Ramen in tokyo is OK but certainly not the best anyway. The Ramen culture varies a lot depending on the region and I find other regions more to my taste (Sapporo is an excellent place for Ramen joints).

And the "Tokyo is the best" for everything gets really really old. Maybe it's the best for some people, but let's avoid making blanket statements all the time.

I don't know about his reputation elsewhere, but at least in New York, it is a consensus that he has overextended in favour of scale over quality. ("Momofuku" is a reference to be inventor of instant ramen.)

Paris and Tokyo are amazing food destinations for different reasons and, though I'd say I ultimately prefer Tokyo, most of my "What the fuck happened here?" moments happened in Tokyo. Like ordering a crab linguine only to be served a pile of fettuccine glued into a single solid mass with what looked and tasted like congealed Kraft cheese spread and the perfectly empty exoskeleton of a blue swimmer crab placed on top of it - like they had someone suck every morsel of meat out of it with a straw. There was no miscommunication: the elegant Japanese girl sitting next to us ordered the same thing and almost had an aneurysm wondering what universe her crab meat had disappeared to. Her expression similar to someone preparing for a particularly powerful sneeze that never came.

I prefer Paris for relaxing - nothing better than sitting under the heated awning of a Parisian cafe with a table to yourself, a book, a pint of beer, a black coffee, a pouch of tobacco and watching people walk past. Well, pint[s] of beer. Or a bottle of wine.

You're clearly not biased about Naritake. I've went to Ramen places all over Japan and Naritake is just so awesome!

I enjoy this person's enthusiasm, but I am skeptical of his method and conclusions. If you have to fly seafood around the world it's not the best seafood any more. Statements like "There's no Southeast Asian food that I can find ... but if it exists it's probably really good" raise their doubts. Using the F word for emphasis in every sentence raises doubts.

Some things I can definitely agree with. Being in Italy drives me crazy too. I think you could make a fortune opening a decent Chinese (or really decent any non-Italian cuisine) restaurant in Rome. Because everything built around pasta in every single restaurant really gets old.

While the style raised doubts for me too, I then saw the byline and realized, well, he can get away with it. For context, the author is David Chang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chang), who has – amongst other accolades – a 2-star Michelin restaurant.

Aside: I also find it very awesome that David Chang made a GenBank reference in this article. :)

Disagree that he can get away with it. Michelin star or not, this guy wouldn't have a modicum of main stream recognition if it weren't for Anthony Bourdain giving him his 15 minutes of fame.

If you watch the Mind of a Chef series where he is featured in the first season, you get the sense that he has a chip on his shoulder regarding asian cuisine. That's fine and maybe well deserved, but I wouldn't get this kind of advice from someone so blatantly biased.

Especially someone who brags about the Japanese sending their "very best cooks to train in Europe" who then subsequently tries to belittle some of the world's top food destinations that happen to be in Europe.

I just saw personal opinions, misogynist remarks (reference to a "dumb blonde who's just beautiful", because "dumb blondes" are not human, you see), condescending remarks, very limited world view, more personal opinions. Yes, Tokyo is the world's best food city…for the author.

I don't feel like looking up who the author is or what the author's prior reputation and accomplishments are (beyond what's mentioned in plain text in the comments here). Those cannot excuse the writing. The words in the article tell a lot.

Exactly, really don't see how this crap article even got to front page and got so much traction.

He sounds like that in his videos too. Every other word is FUCK.

"Why Tokyo Is the World’s Best Food City"? Because the author uses the word "fucking" at least once per paragraph. That is why. So off I go to Tokyo, visibly impressed.

This is obviously very cras and opinionated, but there are 2 key points buried in there - the Japanese are distinguished by their willingness to appropriate good things from around the world. This is a huge difference, I find, compared to European countries, particularly France. They also, as he says, care a lot about what they do, and are devoted to food. This has it's downsides, eg try buying a cheap ugly apple in Tokyo, you will fail, the producer threw it away long before it could have ever reached the store.

I think Japan also gets a bit of a leg up over other places because if you have lived elsewhere all your life then you will find food in Japan incredibly novel and fascinating in provenance, packaging, preparation and presentation. When I first arrived I found even just the convenience stores mind boggling in the variety of stuff I had never seen before. The actual food halls are a whole other level from there. It is difficult to have the same experience if you have lived in the West and go to London/Rome/Paris for the first time.

"The actual food halls"

What are food halls in Japan? Something like food courts in Malaysia? - multiple different food joints (you eat standing there or take away to eat sitting at central tables)?

http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/attractions/dining/depachika/

Interesting. Seems sort of like the malls in KL which also have food courts attached.

I am right and you're wrong if you disagree.

I don't like to eat paella, so it doesn't matter.

Mexican food doesn't matter

Hard to make a convincing argument that way.

It's weird because it's also wrong, which makes me think this person hasn't really thought hard about this:

- There's a couple decent paella places, and some fine Spanish bars that serve some food.

- "best patisseries in the world" is a stretch. There's good stuff, but most major cities in France have one or two places that would beat all of Tokyo's places.

- The egg-salad sandwiches at most convenience stores are not super tasty. I mean it will beat any convenience store food outside of Japan, but I would still only eat convenience store food for time/money reasons. Best food of its kind, but a restaurant will usually be better.

- there's a lot of South-asian restaurants? Notably thai, though I can't vouch for the quality, not knowing what the "real deal" is.

My experience mostly aligns with the author, though. Tokyo has such variety and such a high baseline for food compared to what I've experienced elsewhere that I'm afraid to leave because I've gotten so used to not worrying about bad food.

There's a lot of non-authentic stuff (Chinese places, notably, are all "Japanified"), but usually two or three places that are the real deal for a kind of food.

Except for breakfast food, have not been able to figure out where to get a "Waffle House experience" before 11 AM

In term of patisseries, it's a matter of taste. Patisseries in Japan tend to be less sweet than in France so if, like me, you like them less sweet, then it's difficult to find something as good in France.

I agree with the rest of what you say.

It is if you don't have any dietary restrictions. I'm a Vegetarian and have been living in Tokyo for just over a year now. Coming from New Zealand which is vegetarian friendly (you're guaranteed to find vege options on any menu) I have found this aspect of Japanese living frustrating. I'm not suggesting they need to change but it is something to be aware of. Vegetarianism is a foreign concept to many Japanese and you will encounter situations where rogue meat will end up in your food much less fish. It's not impossible though (provided you can ignore that everything is cooked in meat fat) but I would say that if there are any vegans here they'd be SOL.

Best Food city ? I'm writing from Tokyo right now (I go there several times a month) and while you certainly have a very good palette of choice, within Japan it's one of the most expensive places to eat, and the big problem that I have is that it's constantly crowded, especially where the food is a bit better than average. And the lack of space in general does not match with a super enjoyable experience. I'd prefer eating in Kansai any day, where you can actually relax and enjoy the food (cheaper and of very good quality too) instead of caring about the noise and the crowd.

Yep, i think so too. Kansai is less posh though on the average. Having the upscale experience might be important for some folks...

Osaka, certainly, but Kobe is definitely more on the same posh level as Tokyo, especially for more expensive restaurants.

I read this article with a pinch of salt. The author is biased towards Japanese, French and Italian cuisines. He clearly notes the lack of South Asian and Spanish cuisine restaurants (what about Mexican? Filipino?) in Tokyo. How can a city have the best food in the world, if it's not even a fair representation of the world? That's like saying Japanese, Italian and French cuisines are the best in the world.

Indian food is really good in Tokyo (and throughout Japan I guess). Every single Indian restaurant, no matter how cheap, seems to have a real brick wood fired nan oven, and it only got better from there. I liked the Indian food in Tokyo better than in Delhi.

If you are just in for normal food, Tokyo does have a lot of variety in international food, from kabob to Brazilian (of course), most of them foreign operated. The money in Tokyo along with the residents desire for international food drives the industry.

Mexican food anywhere in Japan is pitiful and only slightly less worse in Tokyo. Living in Osaka, I clearly see a lack of diversity. I'm French, lived in Paris and travels a lot but I agree with the article, I have been to some French and Italian restaurants (run only by Japanese) that offer the best value worldwide.

How is the Mexican food in Paris?

In general, the whole of Europe has no appreciation for Mexican food. I'm sure you can find some rare examples of "good" Mexican restaurants at one or two places in Europe but those are definitely the exceptions.

Mexican food in Europe... <shudder>

> Italian and French cuisines are the best in the world.

Highly subjective, but a lot of people would agree on this.

The best food city has to be the one with the most diversity of foods. If you want the best food of a certain cuisine, of course it would be hard to beat the cuisine's homeland. But some cities are better than others in providing high-quality (but maybe not the absolute best) examples of international cuisines.

Another factor is that, to me, the "best food city" is one that has excellent cheap food. This is also a factor proportional to the city's diversity. Some cities may have amazing high-end restaurants, but I'm not going to eat at a nice sit-down restaurant all the time (maybe even rarely). A city may have many Michelin stars, but when's the last time you considered a Michelin place for lunch? How many times would you go to one, maybe once a year, or less?

Because of this, I would rate many American coastal cities as some of the best places for food because of the diversity.

Tokyo is pretty cheap for normal people. At least, it feels cheaper than an American coastal city depending on swings in the exchange rate. This includes lower end foreign resteraunts.

That was my impression when I visited last year. Granted, USD was doing quite well against JPY at the time, but I was shocked at how much more affordable restaurants were in Tokyo than Seattle. My first meal there was an $8 bowl of ramen, and it was easily the best I've ever had.

I hear about how there are lots of food challenges in Tokyo, I have a sort of fantasy of eating on the super cheap if I visit by winning enough of them...

I think Tokyo fits your criteria very well, too.

I bet that going to Kansai region (Osaka/Kyoto/Kobe/Nara) could beat Tokyo as far as food goes.

For Japanese cuisine, certainly. I agree with you. For western/fusion/foreign cuisine, I believe it's true that Tokyo has probably more choice and a higher level in general.

Came here to say this. Osaka beat the pants off Tokyo food wise. Everywhere I've been in Osaka has been amazing, can't say anything remotely similar for my experiences in Tokyo.

I live in Osaka and it is an amazing place! I go to Tokyo a few times a year and it's clearly inferior. People here are really crazy about food.

I second that. Tokyo's a fun town, but for food -- Osaka beats it hands down.

I usually come to HN to read articles that are the opposite of this one. I don't care who wrote this, I don't care who David Chang is, I come to HN to find facts, data, and rationality. I like the word fucking to emphasize something but I fucking hate reductio ad fuckingum arguments.

IMHO - the one place where you get the best food in a 24 hour area from around the world, including affordable Michelin star food is Singapore.

Between the kopitiams (24 hr coffee shops), 4$ michelin star food [1] and the Timbre gastropark... you really can eat amazing food all in a day.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/04/micheli...

[Well-known chef or not, Chang could cut out that excessive cussing, and utterly tasteless comments about women.]

I don't get the impression the author includes vegetarian options. Or are we to be laughed off the room, because "it's a costal city"? But hey, he uses the all-encompassing "Best Food City".

<data-sample-one> Last year, when in Tokyo (was put up near Shinagawa station), after a long day of work, I simply wanted a good veggie / vegan meal. Took me 2 hours of ambling around (okay, some of it aimless; didn't take my phone with me) to find a place with one veggie option. I asked another vegetation colleague who visits Tokyo far more frequently, and he did kind of confirm: "yeah, it's slightly harder to find veggie / vegan options".

A month before that, was on the other side of Pacific (Seattle), and I found great many options, including delicious Japanese veggie food. </data-sample-one>

I don't believe it's the 'best food city' even for vegetarians, let alone vegans :)

I am not sure about the gourmet scenes in tokyo (I am a poor grad student), but in terms of groceries, they are the best. You can get extremely good quality beef from shops like daiei.

the most unusual stuff I have seen was in 7/11, I don't know how they cook such good quality oden, and even they keep very good quality sandwiches, weird, because to eat something quick and cheap people generally don't mind the quality so much, and the bathrooms are squeaky clean (the public hygiene sense in the us is still primitive if you compare with japan's). 7/11s also keep good onigiris, kara-ages.

tokyo street foods are also amazing, but a dinner at a mediocre restaurant will rip off your pocket.

FYI, for all the jaded readers/commenters (everyone?) I think this is just a an op-ed piece in the vein of "Why X Is Better Than Y" That Lucky Peach has been doing.

http://luckypeach.com/why-new-york-is-better-than-san-franci...

http://luckypeach.com/why-san-francisco-is-better-than-new-y...

I own quite a few copies of the Lucky Peach but I find myself not able to make the majority of recipes because their recipes focus on strong overpowering ingredients.

To me this is sad way of cooking, where a recipe is dominated by onions, or garlic or beats. Its poor man's ketchup cooking.

Is Tokyo the mecca of food? I don't know now but its narrow minded to say one city trumps them all.

Best in what sense? Food is a matter of taste.

Tokyo does have really great food, but let's not delude ourselves here, there are entire categories of cuisine that you simply won't find properly done in Japan. For starters, anything spicy (Thai, Indian, Mexican) tends to be severely lacking.

starts off quite well, but then the article starts to disagree with itself and argues "well, the stuff we don't have I don't care about anyways". If you think this argument is reasonable then it actually applies to everything, everywhere. If I only care about what's great to eat in vietnam then it's the best place in the world that has everything in awesome, because the other stuff is not interesting to me anyways.

Did Donal Trump write this article?

> But you know what I don’t ever really eat? Spanish food. I don’t have to eat paella ever again. Spain’s a country I like to visit, but we’re talking about foods that I generally eat or I want to eat on a day-to-day basis.

If he thinks paella is Spain's main food he doesn't know anything

What is Spain's main food? When I was there, I tried to eat tapas whenever possible.

I agree 100 percent. Been to Spain a lot and still have yet to figure out what their "food" is. all I know is on the coast I can get good paella and inland is potatoes, eggs and jamon.. Which is all fine and dandy but its not exactly deep.

Spain, as a I suppose almost all the countries, doesn't have a "main food".

Paella is not even a food, it is just a dish with concrete ingredients and 99% of what is sold as paella is not paella, it is a rice dish.

EDIT: Legumes (beans, chickpeas and lentils) are the ingredients in the day to day dishes

I know paella as a rice dish with saffron plus other stuff like meat and veggies. The point, at least, I'm making is that if you talk to someone and ask them to think about Italian, Japanese, Chinese, etc food, they have a pretty good idea of what comprises that cultures culinary "menu". With Spain I don't see that. And I'm not saying this sarcastically, I'd really like to know for next time I go there, cause I feel like I'm missing something, and its not 10 year old jamon and eggs...

Yap, it happens the same with cheese or wine, the famous ones are French or Italian.

A good start for the variety is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_cuisine even when the pictures at the right are wrong. It is not mixed paella and pintxos are not common in Catalonia.

Thanks, I'll remember to check the wiki again next time I go. I do think it's funny 2 out of 3 of the first dishes at the top of the page are paella and jamon...

Lol just like everyone knows Italians only eat Pasta and Pizza!

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