Ever young?
antipope.org
antipope.org
By my age my parents were fully paid up members of middle age and led dull lives, as all their generation seemed to. They were very different people to how they described their 20s. I still recognise the me of my 20s. I'm not even becoming more conservative, I've got more liberal except in clothes!
What possible reason is there to grow up? I see no benefit to it, for anyone.
To continue to experience novelty, you have to find new patterns, not just new things that fit patterns you know.
Staying in tech has been easier as so much within it is changing.
I'm not saying there aren't definite drawbacks but when considered like "it just is what it is" I can at least see some of the benefits. There's something to be said for in-depth knowledge and exploration on a specific field or topic but there's also something to be said for having a breadth of experiences and skills. In many ways it can make you more adaptable and when you find yourself needing to draw on skills and experiences, it's a lot easier when you're at least familiar with them even if you're not an expert.
Like I'm not a skilled electrical engineer but I've wired up a house and tied in a breaker panel as part of a job I held for a short time years ago. So when I need to replace a fixture or a garbage disposal, where friends might hire someone and pay several hundred dollars to have it done, I can do some quick research and leverage my limited experience to do it myself. For bigger jobs I still hire someone but that's just how it goes.
Or the fact that I'm not a software developer or network engineer but when I need to set something up on my home network or troubleshoot something at work, I at least understand basic concepts just from screwing with computers for so long and I can usually sort things out with some research or assistance. Most other friends and acquaintances outside the field would just look at something like setting up a home subnetwork and file server for IP cam surveillance as beyond their abilities. My general familiarity means I can sort it out with a bit of trial and effort.
Same goes for just about anything. If I've tinkered with something related as part of my neverending quest for novelty, I don't need to start from scratch every time I need to do something similar. And when a task or endeavor is outside of my abilities, those people who have dedicated themselves to a deeper exploration of a skill or field can come in and make use of their way of doing things. Can't run the economy on just tinkerers, obviously.
I would be surprised if there weren't papers arguing that youthful recklessness morphing into adult conservatism is a learning strategy favored by natural selection.
The reason would be a time horizon for your family that is greater than one (or zero) generations.
If your family, as a cohesive and architected entity, is just something that you do in your own lifespan for your own happiness or fulfillment, then there may indeed be no reason for you to "grow up". Perhaps a friendly, peer relationship to your children is a good model. It probably doesn't make much difference.
Speaking of your parents, they were probably caught in a weird no-mans-land between very traditional narratives of family planning and growth and our own very modern, dis-integrated narrative.
It may interest you to know that the longer you push out the arc of the timeline of your family, the more it becomes necessary to "behave like an adult". It may also interest you to know that no project could be as complex, intricate, risky and fulfilling as transforming a union between one man and one woman into a heirarchical, muti-generational enterprise.
Odds are very good that I will fail at this.
Time horizon is that of the kids, and they've been priority, certainly until they get out of education. Only one is still to come of age, so friendly works, earlier it was more parental. Neither of us wanted to repeat our discipline first childhoods.
You may be right, there was huge change in their lifetimes.
The last part sounds more like building a dynasty. If the proceeds of a startup were in the bank perhaps, but I'd still hope to retain a sense of enjoyment for the kids and us! We'll get them through uni, leave a useful amount, but not anything worthy of family trust.
- finding a job to do until you retire/die
- having kids, and having them be your primary purpose in life
- rightfully abandoning any long term other than attempting to retire
All the other things seem to derive from the above. Honestly adulting literally seems like the first stages of an acceptance of death and aging the change of priorities as a consequence. I think, that given the same inputs (impending infirmities and death) you can come to very different conclusions. I don't have time for kids or retirement because i have a hell of a lot to get done before i die and i'll be working on it right up to the deadline.
Now that I'm in my 40s, I'm so cool, it's just a coincidence that I have to watch out my little girl and tell her to not do this out that every 15 minutes.
[/sarcasm]
Daughter : Dad when can I stop taking these afternoon naps.
Dad: when you actually want to take them.
There are many more things that go about adulthood, and I guess the most defining would be to take responsibility for one's own action.
I had taken responsibility already, it just had not occurred to me that I did not need to defer to other people because of age and experience. (Not that it is bad to defer to more experienced people, but it should be a conscious decision.)
Also, while you don't have to wear a suit, many, many adults would benefit greatly from dressing like adults. Sure, the times change, fashions come and go, models of behaviour change a little, but putting effort in your appearance is timeless. When I see a guy in his 40s wearing cargo shorts, I'm thinking "arrested development."
That's an incredibly... urban...? [1] point of view. For me, the #1 argument for owning a car is flexibility -- knowing you've got the option to drop things at a moment's notice and head off to... wherever.
Owning a house is also an enabler for things which might be meaningful to those without children: building up and maintaining a garden, for one. Hobbies which need a decent-sized, stable, workshop tend to be easier in a house you own than in a rental, too.
(We do have a child now, but my wife and I owned both house and car for years before deciding we wanted children. And now have rather less time for hobbies that make houses and cars essential...)
[1] Not so much in the specifically "city" sense, but in the sense of preferring external infrastructure vs. building up and maintaining enough infrastructure of your own to feel somewhat self-sufficient.
Yes. I was going to add car racing or some offroader as an exception but most people live in cities and don't have that kind of hobbies. And it's probably still more convenient to join a hacker space.
(Edit: this shouldn't be taken as a criticism of Hackerspaces -- they're a great compromise for people who otherwise like the tradeoffs that urban lifestyles bring, and can be fun to visit even if you don't need to borrow the tools).
There are certainly perks to having a car - around here, being able to just drive a few kilometers (beyond walk/bike distance) opens up new hiking routes, for example. But isn't that what friends are for? ;-)
I encourage you, no, plead with you - drive your car to Germany. It's so much fun and so enjoyable and spontaneous to drive internationally. You can stop anywhere something interests you and hold to whatever timeline you like.
One of the more stupefying cultural traits of young europeans that I know is the unwillingness (even among car owners) to take driving vacations. This is especially unbelievable when you consider that europeans could literally drive to China, let alone Italy/Greece/Russia/CZ/Spain/Turkey/etc.
Sweet tax bennies, at least in the U.S.
I'm not sure how you figure that owning a car is related to raising children. If I had to guess, I would say you lived in a very dense urban environment. Your statement just seems kind of insane anywhere else.
Given that I have interests outside of work, I don't actually want to live within three minutes of my workplace if there's more fun to be had living farther away.
Based on the wording of your last paragraph, it sounds like you may not actually have a good argument for wearing nice clothes, and are just advocating it because that's what you see other people doing. The reason I try to dress nicely is that it's cheap psychological hack. For whatever reason, most people, including myself to some degree, have some sort of innate bias towards people who look well dressed. This could be because it correlates with social status, or wealth, or any other number of factors, but regardless of why it's the case, it's a very cheap way to buy social credit. It's up to you whether or not this increase in social credit is worth the financial and comfort cost of wearing nice clothes.
I had a few people at my last company who were much younger than me and had children.
The only thing I noticed, was, that they started to "talk" older, but their actions didn't seem rather "grown up" to me...
I have the feeling, getting children switches people in the "Now I'm adult and need to be responsible" mode without giving them the needed knowledge how to execute this behaviour, mostly cargo culting around.
Or do you mean something else?
> Men in their 30s are running around like children, sabotaging relationships and their lives without obligation or thought of consequence. Why?
[1] https://escapingpan.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/hello-world/
On the other hand I have two girlfriends who are sometimes dating other men and the other guys often end up being idiots, too...
Maybe most people are simply bad at relationships?
Much like the original article (I base my worldview on the opinions of those around me) the problem is internal (she thinks she's a princess) but the blame goes outward (nobody treats her like one).
I guess neither has learned how to be a grown up. Considering the shape society has formed recently, I'm not surprised.
This.
IMO you become an adult when you stop thinking what others should/could do for you and you take responsibility on what you could and should do for someone else.
But some cultures consider that parents are responsability of the sons. Some people include brothers. Some include just women from the family. So, I preferred to mean it in a broader sense.
What the fuck has sexist bitching got to do with hacking? The points system on this site is a joke. 29 points? That comment does not in any way deserve 29 fucking points.
I avoided all of that by marrying someone into wreck diving, mountains, the gym etc too :-)
I think this assumes that the Patriarchy is defined as men deciding how things ought to be, when I think that it's more a trench our society fell into and can't figure out how to climb out of.
If you take away the mans benefits of a traditional relationship what reason is there for a man to invest in one today? Certainly not the benefits that have existed for the previous hundreds(thousands) of years while our species evolved.
Should men have had those benefits? Perhaps not of course. Doesn't change the fact that they did exist and no longer do. (it's not as if this was a one way street)
There's nothing 'evil' or 'wrong' about identifying that things which previously existed no longer do.
Perhaps there's no acknowledgement of obligation/consequence because none exists anymore, whether that's a good or bad thing is a separate argument.
Here's the equality you wanted. Time to dogfood it.
Well, in today's housing market you need a double income :)
Choosing the couple most extreme cases isn't very interesting.
Not how I feel at all.
But sure, here's a brief summary of tasks previously(generations ago) assigned to almost solely females:
-Household chores
->laundry
->cleaning
->cooking
Again, we're talking about the past here, women today obviously live in a different world where they are empowered.
Do I think women should have to do those things now? Nope.
Did I say they did? Nope.
Do I think women choosing this lifestyle are 'stupid' or not 'empowered enough'? Nope.
Do men owe women anything in this context? Nope.
This is equality. Men have _nothing_ to apologize for or work towards. We are equal.
Exactly what am I afraid of?
Please don't assume that people attack you when asking questions.
The corollary to that is people who're successful and have a lot of hobbies and have a six pack (the abs kind) probably aren't having time for relationship. She might be looking for a unicorn?
I guess it 's just a roundabout way for me to say that the problem seems to me on her end rather than the world. Even discounted for the potential self-awareness humour bit at the end, the very first paragraph already strikes me as ... a bit off.
(Quoting for reference)
> I am a woman in her 30s living in an exciting and lively urban area. I am successful, intelligent, fiercely independent, hard working, beautiful (by my own standards when I’m not PMSing), and multifaceted. I have a wonderful career, worked hard to pursue and complete graduate level education, and I am sane and stable (subjectively). I play various musical instruments, have an array of interesting and active hobbies, have loyal and loving friends and family, and my charm and wit entertain myself and others to no end. I am a catch. Not to mention, severely humble.
Without the phrase in between those parens, I find the semantic ambiguity very amusing (~_^)
Being childish and dysfunctional as this piece seems to be about are rather different. There are people like that. I can even think of one, and he's as bad at 50. Most guys have been changing babies, cooking, using vacuums and joining in all the mad juggling act that is a two working with kids household.
You can have responsibilites, kids, and career without having to settle into a life of dull conformity, wearing "old people" clothes and no fun beyond a weekly trip to the shops. Can't you?
I assure you, you can. Want to travel the world with your kids? You can. Want to buy a sailboat and sail the world with your kids? You can. I even know poly couples and swingers who continue to enjoy their romantic/hedonistic lives while raising 2-3 kids, while remaining well adjusted emotionally stable parenting figures.
Your life is what you make of it.
Examples of families adventuring with their kids:
http://www.bumfuzzle.com/ | http://www.sailingtotem.com/ | https://afamilyafloat.com/ | http://www.svwondertime.com/
Or adventuring without kids:
http://traveling-trio.com/ | http://theroadchoseme.com/ (shoutout to HN's /u/grecy)
Or Doug, a DBA in his 50s in Tulsa building a ~73 foot sailboat in his front year: http://www.svseeker.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puer_aeternus#Peter_Pan_syndro...
> I am a woman in her 30s living in an exciting and lively urban area. I am successful, intelligent, fiercely independent, hard working, beautiful (by my own standards when I’m not PMSing), and multifaceted. I have a wonderful career, worked hard to pursue and complete graduate level education, and I am sane and stable (subjectively). I play various musical instruments, have an array of interesting and active hobbies, have loyal and loving friends and family, and my charm and wit entertain myself and others to no end. I am a catch. Not to mention, severely humble.
Men are into women primarily for one deep ancestral reason: reproduction. Are you willing to drop your successful career, independence, array of interesting hobbies, move into a less exciting area to save money for the next ten years of your life? Are you willing make conceiving, delivering and raising children your new career? I didn't think so. Then don't act so surprised that mature men stay far far away from you. If all you need is someone to cheer how awesome you are, your circle of loyal and loving friends will have to do.
On a deeper level, it saddens me to no end to witness the death of a great civilization. We are here because our ancestors took motherhood seriously. Our culture is poisoning the minds of our generation with distractions and false gods. Our great-great-children may never be conceived. Nobody left to carry on. End of times.
Is this anything more than a conservative's fantasy? From everything I've read, women in general never dedicated their lives to raising children. Either they were poor and had too much work to do, or they had servants to take care of them. This concept of widespread full-time motherhood doesn't seem rooted in any historical reality.
Rich westernized countries, except US, offer between 1 and 3 years of unpaid maternity leave. This is a strong recognition of the critical role mothers play in the early life of their children, and a recognition of the importance of rearing the next generation. Multiply by 2 or 3 children, and you get anywhere between 2 and 9 years of working on the "conceiving, delivering and raising children" career. Of course, it doesn't end when the child is 3 years old, more like when s/he's 18, and sometimes much later.
Furthermore, when women have a real choice between career and family, many choose family. http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/ec.... "in the Netherlands 26.8% of men and 76.6% of women work less than 36 hours a week". I, for one, am commending them for it.
Does this mean that women should spend their entire existence attending to their children? By no means! The Dutch arrangement sound fantastic. As an old Dutch friend proudly stated, what Netherlands does today, the rest of the developed world will do in 10-20 years, so there is hope for the rest of us.
As of the lady in the OP, she has her priorities in the wrong place, no surprise adult men stay away from her.
2) Life-long monogamy, even as an aspirational ideal, is on its death bed. Marriage is now about personal satisfaction, instead of duty to spouse and children.
I believe, rather, that this woman is suffering from opportunity costs for decisions she did not realize she was making at the time. She seems to know the type of mate she wants, which is more than most, though unfortunately for her what she wants went "off the market", for her at least, while she was in graduate school. She wants an educated, intelligent, supportive, successful, committed and sacrificing man in his thirties. These exists in sufficient abundance, it's merely that most of those men are either already in committed, long term relationships with people they met while in their twenties, or are not seeking a woman in her thirties with a settled career. Successful men in their thirties tend to be, by definition, successful and so most of them have already successfully found what they want at that moment, whether that's long term or non-committal.
Most, if not all, including Indian and Asian women having westernized thinking are sluts to be blunt. Someone had to say it after all. They think that their actions have no consequences. Well, biggest consequence is on their own life.
As a man in my 30s, why would I settle down some used and thrown woman? What incentive do I have to settle down with women like one in the story? If career was so important why not celibate for life?
No one wants them. Where were women like her when I was asking her (or alike) out 5-10 yrs back. Sure,she can have money and sexual freedom but then don't complain saying its mens fault. No, its her fault for believing in feminism and being a slut.Karma is a bitch after all!
Good night. I have to focus on my hobbies now.
I will stay with that proverb:
I am getting older, thats mean i have been younger longer than you!
so when we grow up and the reality doesn't exactly match our expectations, the assumption is that we're not doing it right. usually, at least when we - or close friends - get kids, the acting is explained. and we might have aquired the background knowledge, but the settings have changed.
i don't think we refuse to grow up. it's just that being an adult is not what we thought it to be when we attached meaning to the word.
This article spends a lot of time talking about the trappings, like cars and stuff. For me at least, having or not having that stuff has never been the issue with adulthood.
It's much easier (satisfying, even) when the other people are friends, family, spouse, neighbors... people you care about. It is no sacrifice to expend time and energy helping these people.
To be clear, I don't think it's good that I feel this way. I don't think more people should be like me. But this is how I am, and attempting to deny the fact has only led to resentment, depression, and a bad time for all involved.
That depends entirely on who they are.
If it happens that some children want to remain in childhood, I suppose a possible explanation is that there could be an allegory-of-the-cave effect. I think most people like making their own decisions until adult interference gets to the point of making them worse at it.