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Comment by mgkimsal | Hacker News Reader

It seems that "great" developer is somewhat a synonym for "public" developer. I'm not sure how companies would just "know" someone is "great" otherwise. And yes, not all publicly known developers are necessarily great (or even good), but I'm not sure how one would recognize a 'great' developer without that person also having some degree of publicness to them.

And yet, I've known more than a handful of developers who are really solid, great people to work with, and I'd like to work with again. None of them have ever blogged, podcasting, presented at conferences nor run a public repository on github. Yet by many definitions of 'great', they fit the bill, but not the sort of 'great' that would mean companies would just 'know' of their greatness, and go out of their way to hire/recruit them.

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> It seems that "great" developer is somewhat a synonym for "public" developer.

Not really.

What Joel and Dan are both talking about is that great developers tend to have coworkers who know they're great and will happily hire them at other companies.

I'm certainly not a "public" developer. My most popular repo on GitHub has maybe 10 stars. But I do have a handful of people who I've worked with in the past who will readily hire me at their new companies.

Referrals are how most hiring works, and it's the predominant way that companies recognize "great" developers even though said developers are not public.

I have been in this industry for 14 years. I know three developers I have worked with who are both still working and not still at the companies where I worked with them. It's kinda hard for me to take advantage of that. This kinda ties in to the point tptacek made elsewhere about the problems of relying on this kind of recruiting.

> It's kinda hard for me to take advantage of that.

Why? That's 3 companies where someone should be willing to give you a strong referral, not to mention that really your network should include second-degree referrals as well.

It's only three companies, and they aren't companies I would want to work at unless I needed another job.

I'm not sure what you mean by "second-degree referrals".

the fact that you have repos on github qualifies you as a 'public' developer.

Offtopic but there was another post here recommending that people do just that, be very visible and public so when the layoffs happen you aren't the person laid off even if you're just doing the same work as everybody else you appear to be indispensible. Recruiting works the same I guess.

That's not at all what Dan Luu is talking about - not at all sure where you got that. He repeatably mentions personal recommendations.

"Joel also posits that companies can recognize prospective “great” developers easily"

Reacting more perhaps to this general notion (or Joel's notion?)

I understood that notion to mean the companies would recognize a "great" developer when they were presented with one, either during the interview or even when said developer was working with them.

there were refs to companies "knowing" people and sending them offers as soon as they heard of a layoff, for example (either somewhere in the piece or in the comments here).

> and I'd like to work with again

Exactly! People they know tell them about jobs and then vouch for them.

That assumes those people keep an active network. While I - a freelancer - am still connected with former colleagues through LinkedIn I don't expect to ever get a job through any of them, and vice versa, despite having much enjoyed working with them and received offers to do a project together while we were together at a particular job. It's just that we have had zero contact apart from the time we were on the project together. It would feel extremely awkward to now, years later, send them an email "would you know a job for me", no matter how well we worked together. You just don't do that, at least I wouldn't. If I was asked by someone by someone I once knew I would immediately feel like an unwritten and unspoken social contract was broken. It just doesn't feel right to me. After a few years it's just too much time that has passed. It feels like putting social pressure on them, similar to those "endorsements" on LinkedIn.

> You just don't do that, at least I wouldn't.

You are definitely an outlier in the industry.

By far the most common way to hire people is through referrals.

Whenever I am looking for a new job, I send out emails to my network saying I'm looking for a new opportunity and to let me know if they know anything interesting. It's a win-win for everyone.

> definitely

Source?

> Whenever I am looking for a new job

So a sample of one against a sample of one is "definitely"? :-)

I have yet to see anyone do that, and I'm connected to quite a few colleagues from when I was still employed, not just from the freelancer period.

Even in this thread you can find many people besides myself attesting to the consistent power of referrals in most hiring. In fact, that's even one of the central

I am, frankly, amazed that you have never had a former colleague approach you about a job opening they had or express that they're looking for a new job. That's literally one of the most basic uses of networking out there, not to mention that many companies have explicit cash bonuses for referring new hires.

Here's a recent survey showing that most hiring comes through networking: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/new-survey-reveals-85-all-job...

  > Even in this thread you can find many people

So a lot of anecdotes. That is not what I'm looking for when I ask for a source, you know.

  > I am, frankly, amazed

Doesn't that show that your experience is limited?

  > Here's a recent survey

That looks like it's based overwhelmingly on US-based results? I'm not in the US.

> That looks like it's based overwhelmingly on US-based results? I'm not in the US.

So what?

I did not say that you specifically could only get jobs through networking, I said it is the predominant method of hiring.

You literally have nothing but your own anecdotes on your side. I have a bunch of anecdotes in this thread, not to mention actual data.

  > So what? I did not say that you specifically could only get jobs through
  > networking, I said it is the predominant method of hiring.

And I said your "proof" only seems to apply to the US.

  > I have a bunch of anecdotes in this thread,

Are you trying to be funny? I can't tell, but I cannot imagine this was meant to be a serious comment.

> It would feel extremely awkward to now, years later, send them an email "would you know a job for me",

This practise seemed alien to me as well... but it turns out that it really is a common and accepted practise.

Most companies give cash bonuses to current employees if they successfully refer someone. I'm sure they'd be happy to have a shot at that money if nothing else.

Bonuses almost never apply to referring freelancers.

Typical bonuses I've seen are $100-$500. Recruiters usually get ~20% of the first year salary.

It doesn't require an active network at all.

> It would feel extremely awkward to now, years later, send them an email

If you ever have a reason to send that email I hope you do. Most people enjoy a chance to help someone out and they'll often get a bonus for it. I've gotten emails from people I didn't actually know and just sent them on to the recruiting team. For people I did know or had a trusted recommendation for I'd follow up with the hiring manager directly.

> It would feel extremely awkward to now, years later, send them an email "would you know a job for me", no matter how well we worked together. You just don't do that, at least I wouldn't. If I was asked by someone by someone I once knew I would immediately feel like an unwritten and unspoken social contract was broken. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Anyone that I worked with (even 20 years ago) and who was a good colleague then would be more than welcome to ask me for help in a job search. I'd think of it as totally normal and something that I'm happy to do.

>You just don't do that, at least I wouldn't.

Maybe you don't but a great many people do, myself included. If you did a great job, people remember that. Of the colleagues I've worked with in the past that I respected, I would have no hesitation in passing on leads to them or referring them to my current employer.

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