Another replacement Samsung Galaxy Note 7 has caught fire | Hacker News Reader

Another replacement Samsung Galaxy Note 7 has caught fire

theverge.com

111 pointslnguyen47 comments

I wonder if this is the reason:

"I inspected the kernel source code. Samsung charges the note 7 battery at just over 4.35v

Older models have 4.35v batteries but only charge to 4.3v.

If you put a generic 4.2v lithium ion battery in, they survive 4.3v with a reduction in charge cycles but anything above that causes formation of metallic lithium dendrites, a non reversible process that eventually causes a fire. This policy makes sense if you have removable batteries as there are lots of fake genuine samsung batteries. But you want maximum battery life using special 4.35v cells. Perhaps they thought with a sealed battery they could hit 4.35v?

The chemistry is not hugely different, just uses more expensive elements. So a factory trying to minimise cost could easily introduce a defect from changing from one type to another etc.

So this tiny change could cause a defective battery to catch fire where it normally would not.

Doesnt matter how you charge it, more how long it sits above 4.30v at ~60-100% float charge.

So samsungs 60% charge resolves 2 issues, peak voltage above 4.3 and energy release on failure.

Imho they need to go back to 4.3v policy rather than just replace and assume its a once off.Lithium batteries used in phones dont catch fire without physical damage like a knife or overvoltage. That's why this is so unusual.

Ps kernel source is available from samsungs website because android is based on linux.

Tldr: policy change from 4.3v float charge to 4.35vwhich I have confirmed by examining source code available on samsungs website would explain the fires"

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/560luq/slug/d8fhh2...

Other Reddit threads have stated that this is inaccurate, and the S6+ use 4.4V batteries.

That sound weird, a 0.05V fluctuation should be well within tolerance. Otherwise there'd be plenty of phones blowing up out of nowhere due to glitches or random overshoots from the charging circuitry.

Charge circuitry can easily maintain a ±0.05V voltage tolerance if needed. For example, googling for datasheets found this charge controller IC with 1% tolerance: http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/4050f.pdf

I'm no expert on battery chargers, but I can certainly imagine a design using that kind of tolerance if it made the batteries work better; holding that kind of tolerance is fairly cheap these days. Re: glitches, I'd imagine that a battery isn't going to care about extremely short duration events; preventing longer-duration overshoots isn't all that hard.

Your argument would be valid if they all exploded neatly when reaching 100% charge, not when there actually is "plenty of phones blowing up out of nowhere".

Harsh but well said:

"At this point, it’s irresponsible for us to say anything else: If you own a Samsung Galaxy Note 7 you should immediately stop using it and return it for a refund (...) The Samsung Galaxy Note 7 is a fundamentally defective product and it should be pulled from the market without delay."

Not sure what's going on, but it looks like Samsung is handling this extremely poorly.

I am from South Korea. There were numerous reports from people on Facebook or other social media that Note 7 replacements were also having battery problems, but Samsung have been trying hard to control Korean newspapers to report them as false reports from "black consumers". It's ridiculous to see how they can manipulate media as they want. I'm glad that Samsung does not have such power outside South Korea.

What do you mean by "black consumers"? Are those supposed to be people who want to discredit the company or actual black people?

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2016/09/133_214567...

> In Korea, black consumers refer to those who dishonestly seeking reparations for what they allege are faulty goods.

Thanks for the clarification :)

> Just now got this. I can try and slow him down if we think it will matter, or we just let him do what he keeps threatening to do and see if he does it

That guy just made $10 million on that text.

/r/Android also shows another 3 more recent cases of Note 7's blowing up, 2 from Korea and one from Taiwan.

If it seems like Samsung's executive leadership is asleep at the wheel on this one, it's because that's almost literally the case: Chairman Lee had a heart attack in 2014 and hasn't been seen in public since. While he's apparently alive he also hasn't handed over power despite being unable to communicate vocally for several years.

This problem (+ the fact that it still hasn't been fixed) and the pricing of recent big-brand models makes me consider buying from Chinese manufacturers suchs a Xiaomi, OnePlus etc

Chinese manufacturers aren't exactly well known for good lithium battery safety. IIRC the entire reason amazon banned hoverboards was because they couldn't tell which Chinese manufacturers used safe batteries.

There's a difference between whatever-random-flybynight-hoverboard company and, say, Huawei or OnePlus.

...

I hope. Cause I just bought a OnePlus 3 after being really disappointed by the Pixel phone. Like who made google think they could charge iphone money for a nexus -- $750 plus tax so over $800 to get something with 64G of space?

The OnePlus has been out since June and while there are sporadic reports of fires (just like there are sporadic reports of iphone fires), there's nothing like the wave of reports of Samsung phones catching fire.

I have a Huawei p8 max and it is great. I have a cheap whitelabel Chinese Android as well and that is nice too: never overheats and has good battery life (and was $40). You need to reflash Android but other than that...

I agree, this is part of my point. If the big brands manufacturing under stricter regulations still face the same problems then why pay the premium?

Why not say that or at least add that to your post in the first place/

I thought it was self explanatory. I guess it wasn't.

Oneplus 3 is a gem. Probably the best android right now.

Have a look at LG G5 too. Similarly priced -in Europe at least- with good quality and innovation (normal + wide angle camera, always on screen). Also it has features missing from the plus (sd card, aptx, removable battery).

I was on the market for a new device couple weeks ago and after an extensive search I went with the lg.

The white temperature of the G5 screen is way too high. Just look at any comparison of the screens next to other phones.

My personal solution was to put down the extra $80 (price difference at the time) and get an HTC10. Better camera, better sound, SD card, aptx, beautiful full metal construction, almost-stock android.

Like the pixel it does not support SD cards. That is a no go for me.

the Pixel look really sweet if you can justify it :

-awesome camera. I already have remarked with the 6P that having a reliable camera that is always in your pocket is really a big plus and something I do not want to give up.

- performances & industrial design : Google spent a lot of efforts on the Pixels & 7.1 and it shows. Each micro stutter on a device annoys me since I spend a lot of time polishing how my apps run (I am an android engineer focusing on UI and perfs).

I am probably biased but the Pixels look like good purchases to me.

Other than that, I would have avoided Samsung anyway, even before the fires. The real life perfs of their devices has always been atrocious and they have a tendency to ruin the OS with tons of random unneeded features.

The Moto G is usually the device recommended for the best bang for your bucks. Ironically, it is now a chinese device as well. You won't have to deal with any crazyness like the onePlus invites though.

The pixel looks good, but it's so expensive. Is it really offering twice as much as the 6p?

So, I am probably biased : - as I said earlier, I spend a lot of time polishing the app I develop, so I tend to really appreciate a device with impeccable performances. I doubt that normal buyers focus that much on performances even though I think it is a very important aspect of a device. It is not just a matter of looking good, fluid animations are always a very important cue allowing to relay what is happening in the app. They don't work if you miss half the frames.

-my company will probably buy me a Pixel, so I don't really know whether I would buy one.

Off the top of my head, my issues with the 6P / things the Pixel can potentially do better : -Just a bit too big. I love the size of that screen, but I often mistype and I think it might be related to its size. Even the biggest Pixel is a bit smaller, so I am curious to see if it sits in the right spot for me.

-Performances are unimpressive. Previous generations of Android devices showed each time a big leap in real world performances. Not that much with the 6P. It does not perform that badly but there are numerous micro hiccups. It looks like performances have plateaued in its generation. I am not sure how the pixel performs in that area (I am waiting for some real reviews for that) but it looks like some things like touch latency seems to have improved a lot with this phone. I am not sure how much of this will transfer to the 6P when it gets 7.1 though.

-Better industrial design with the pixel.

-Again, I think that a really good camera in your pocket is pretty important. The 6P is already pretty good in that regard. It is a bit slow to compose these HDR+ shots though. From the DxoMark test (https://www.dxomark.com/Mobiles/Pixel-smartphone-camera-revi...), it looks like the pixel solves this. On top of that, unlimited storage in original quality is also something I really appreciate.

So, is the pixel a better device ? it surely looks that way. Is it worth buying over the 6P (or even a Moto G) ? I don't know. It really depends on what you want, what you can afford (and are ready to spend) and how costly the device is in your region (especially with carrier subsidies).

OnePlus 3 doesn't require invites to buy outright though (unlike 1 and 2).

Thanks, good to know. This practice still leaves me a really sour taste though.

What are you expecting they say? Return the phone and we are doom?

Even with the coincidence of Pixel release and Samsung having problems with their batteries which hints with high probability the occurrence of corporate sabotage, the way Samsung has been trying to deal with this is appalling.

Tosh. Both Samsung and Google time their releases around the iPhone release and Thanksgiving and Christmas so the timing is completely natural. The fact is Samsung rushed the phone to production and pushed the engineering beyond their capability in order to try and get ahead of the competition. They blew it badly and are now bungling the aftermath. Or is their ridiculously crack-handed and borderline criminal handling of the situation also somehow someone else's fault?

Hahaha nope, the US is desperate to continue its dominance over the market to sustain their surveillance apparatus and will deal with anyone, company and org that attempts to prevent their surveillance capabilities in a highly aggressive manner.

They just sabotaged the phone manufacturing process to create room for Googles Pixel and Apple. Samsung is just incapable of handling the level of sabotage that was dealt against them.

This is just part for the course for the US, and I'm a bit surprised Samsung is this negligent in preparing for these types of actions that were highly suspected for a while.

Edit: for background for those other than the fanboys and tech bros, corporate sabotage is such a norm in American business the FBI has an entire division dedicated to investigating it, as do military intelligence for companies involved in military contracts. SpaceX and ULA is one such example where military intelligence is involved in investigating corporate sabotage.

Many major companies have teams and processes for this purpose.

As for Samsung, they seem to have picked up extremely bad business habits, and themselves are also known to participate in sabotaging their competitors as stated by other Koreans unfortunate enough to challenge them.

I think there is a small chance of any modern phone catching fire. I saw a news article about the same thing happening to a new iPhone 7. The first batches of note 7 were defective so they had a higher chance of combustion. I'm pretty sure that's not the case with replacement phones. This is just some sensationalist "journalism".

I hadn't heard anything about an iPhone 7 catching fire, so I just looked into it. And it's pretty obvious that the box was badly damaged. So no, the iPhone 7 did not catch fire under normal conditions, it was heavily damaged first.

Photos of the packaging: http://imgur.com/a/LrhYz

A small chance does not show up with 3 phones catching fire within a week. How many of these phones would have even made it into customer's hands during that time.

I doubt it is eve fair to say there is a "chance" they will catch fire, but let us say there is. What is the "chance" that they will all catch fire within the first few days of use?

This is all quite damning, and unfortunately is probably going to put a dent in Android adoption. With Samsung being the more premium Android brand, I suspect many people will pick-up an Apple instead. But that is just speculation.

>This is all quite damning, and unfortunately is probably going to put a dent in Android adoption

Not likely. There are tons of other Android phones that people can use (including the new pixel). Everyone I've talked to (including non technical people) about this have associated this with Samsung, not Android.

You have to imagine it will have some affect. I purchase the phones for my company and the (all non-technical) people who come me to generally ask, "Should I get an Apple or a Samsung?".

This is kinda the point. Those people aren't saying "android", they're saying "Samsung. This isn't going to affect android sales in general, other than the fact that Samsung accounts for a big chunk. Google is aiming to take that chunk, and more - they'll be saying "pixel" this time next year.

Except that Samsung is the largest supplier of Android. So if somebody was going to get an Android, it is likely they were going to get a Samsung.

https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Rankings/comScore-Reports-...

If they don't get a Samsung, it is possible they will go to Apple, the other large supplier.

I acknowledged that and predicted that Google will increasingly encroach on Samsung's market share.

This is in no way sensationalism and comparing the unconfirmed single iPhone fire in shipping to a bungled recall in which replacement devices are still defective is a false equivalency.

As the article says, this is three replacement Note 7s catching fire in less than a week (that we know about). If that incidence rate were normal for other devices, I think we would know about it. (And I imagine far fewer people would carry phones around in their pockets.)

That chance seems elevated with the newer Samsung devices. I haven't seen anything close to this for other hardware manufacturers.

The S7 also has had several reports of fires. A family member of mine woke up to her S7 screen completely burned through. A quick search reveals many similar cases.

Samsung has been slow to acknowledge the severity of the issues, which has led to customer support requests via press release such as this article.

i wonder if thats why my screen has cracked... (S7 edge)

very strange crack pattern. (barely visible marble pattern) Im fairly certain it happened while i was using it on a hot day and it got to hot to hold. But not certain. Want to swap it for a blackberry priv anyway but not got around to it.

The batteries in modern smartphones are very easy to get wrong. So, it's not specifically the phone itself which combusts, but the battery.

Lithium batteries are very sensitive to the charging process. It could be that Samsung tried to optimize that and it worked in a lab. But when they produce millions of phones some devices just by chance will be outside the very tight safety margins.

Meh, it is too close to the rise of Goole as smartphone fab, the competition between Qualcomm and Samsung processors and the rise of Chinese fabs trying to enter the western markets.

Their adversaries are very dangerous and I wouldn't be surprised if they have to disassemble a huge amount of their production to find the error.

I still remember that Facebook Executive mysteriously jumping planes after the Koreans refused to make a Facebook only phone, and the plane having some weird malfunction and the ensuing racist banter by American media. Even the Japanese turned around their flights to SF to check their planes for sabotage, and found some strange errors in their flight systems. Of course they were american boeing airplanes, and they might do well to begin diversifying their fleet if you ask me.

So your theory is that this is the result of industrial sabotage facilitated by a government?

Given that three letter agencies have assisted in industrial espionage in the past and industrial facilities have been damaged through remote exploits (iran's uranium centrifuges were targeted with a virus if I recall correctly) it certainly is not impossible.

However, we are discussing lots of sensitive batteries so problems in the errors of margin in manufacture or operations is a simpler explanation.

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