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> I think I did some of my best work when assigned a desk essentially in a corridor ... > .. but the worst of all for me is emotional noise e.g. people bickering. Trapped in a small office with unpleasant people ..

There lies the problem. If its some unrelated people discussing stuff that doesn't interest us then its just background noise and get filtered out. But in office space it is exactly the opposite. You sit around with people who are doing similar work and most often what they discuss is directly or indirectly related to you/your-work. This is a problem.

Another thing i notice is that concentration is multi stage process. Sometimes when you are between something then its easy to get into the zone. But at times when doing some meta thinking, analysing where your thought process is correct or when trying to get grasp over a difficult problem, where again you have do analyse your thinking, it requires conscious effort to stay focused. If the environment is conducive then it becomes that much easier.

Exactly! I can work all day long in coffee shop, but an open space is pure torture to me.

The distinction, and this is why offices are important to me, is that in a coffee shop you can 99% expect that nobody is going to come up to you and bother you.

In an open plan, that expectation is nearly 0%. Even if you're wearing headphones and wrap yourself in custom made police tape labelled GO AWAY, someone will still come up to your field of vision and poke you in the shoulder.

A friend of mine has a sign on the back of his chair that say something like "Please do not disturb me when I'm wearing headphones." and people still disturb him because it is easier than emailing him.

His manager told him that he's "unapproachable". LOL!

My favorite interruption: "Just wanted to check if you got my latest email"

3 minutes after they sent it.

> There lies the problem. If its some unrelated people discussing stuff that doesn't interest us then its just background noise and get filtered out. But in office space it is exactly the opposite. You sit around with people who are doing similar work and most often what they discuss is directly or indirectly related to you/your-work. This is a problem.

I can't not pay attention to background noise. It doesn't matter how irrelevant it is, or even if it is speech or not. I also always have to be on guard all the time in case some actually does try to speak specifically with me. Thus, I live in constant fear of interruption.

> its just background noise and get filtered out

I'm not convinced many do that effectively. Definitely not with ADHD, which seems highly overrepresented in dev and IT generally, as there's no filter.

ALL distraction and noise is distracting to me though meds mitigate, as is happening to glance at my coffee mug, or noticing some movement as someone goes to the kitchen. If it's a small group, 2-4 is my preferred, conversation seems to settle on discussion of ideas, design and relevant topics, and settles into a rhythm. I prefer having someone to bounce ideas off. Much of the time the group is head down working - sometimes a little too much such that you start to feel it's getting unnaturally quiet round here.

If it's a large open plan space with all functions, or a small group of disparate workers, now everything is a distraction and pulls me out of focus all the time. There's no natural rhythm, or quiet spells, tied to the work. My focus is pulled to the support call, or the different product, or the discussion of golf (A game I have no interest in) way over there.

I know non-ADHD people have a filter, but they usually seem similarly affected, just not quite as much. Before meds I would be distracted by them being distracted. Fun times. :)

Open offices are a fun time, right? lol, that meta-distraction from other's distraction is entertaining in a metaphysical sense. ;) I find that semi-quiet large workplaces are the most difficult for my ADHD brain. If there are people working near me on similar problems I have to share with them otherwise it's extremely distracting for me as I can't as naturally filter out what they're doing, like getting coffee or being distracted themselves. It actually feels rude.

For me it's like I don't have as much of a "middle ground" like most people. Either I'm social engaged with people around me and tossing ideas around, or I'm super-focused and completely absorbed in work to the point of completely ignoring coworkers (which again doesn't go over well). Medication helps bring that filtering function from a step-function to more of a smooth "sigmoid" function. It's more for other people though than myself.

Making usage of those distracted times by communicating necessary details or help arrange effective sharing across projects helps a lot too. That "distractibility" can be a boon at times if honed. Still I like to put focused project work at night when others aren't around, but that's hard to maintain.

Yeah, great. Seems like I'm always processing distraction and there's no cycles left for anything else. Try and avoid those types of places.

I don't have much middle ground either, and knowing I depend on external factors for motivation is why I like small groups. The peer pressure of 3 others having a quiet productive hour is assistive. The natural rhythm of breaks gives plenty of chances to ask the nagging question about the API you're writing etc. Meds mean I can be productive in that, not pick up every distraction, and I'm not depending on locking myself away behind headphones and tunnel focus on screen. I could be wrong, but it feels most productive for everyone.

I've found the distractability, and lack of patience with interests a huge help over the years, so long as I don't get carried away. Ended up collecting a bit of knowledge of a ridiculous range of fields and IT sub-niches. Lost count of the times it's helped me see the big picture, or the question no one else knew to ask. The downside is I've probably had more hobbies and interests - for a month or two - than everyone else in the office put together. :) Yep, for when you need to just produce, when the world and phones are quiet, nights are excellent.

For the managers reading this thread: just because some people can stand the noise and the distractions shouldn't mean it's safe to opt for a henhouse floorplan. There is a significant number of people (probably even more so in software development) whose noise filtering is broken on a hardware level. They CANNOT learn to filter better.

If you have a noisy environment, you probably shouldn't hire people with ASD/AD(H)D for example.

The reason managers want this is because they dont know how to tell their employees are actually working so if they see the employee in the office, then they feel better. Sad but true.

This has "truthiness" but I doubt it. Engineering managers at big tech companies (which are so fond of open office spaces) tend to be former engineers.

Pointy-haired bosses who can't tell what their reports are doing are more of a hallmark of cube farms than open offices.

I think it comes down more to them not knowing exactly when the sausage is made. They can agree if the sausage is good or not when it comes out of the factory, but what happens in the middle is less clear. The thinking goes, "code gets output typically when this person sits at this desk, and so when I don't see them sitting at this desk, they probably aren't outputting code."

I have ADD and work in an open floor plan hell hole. Google is great for most things, but the open floor plan is killing my experience the most because of my condition. They dont really care because they have too many employees to afford switching from open floor plan now.

If you're in the US, they have to accommodate your condition. Talk to your manager and if they don't help, talk to HR. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen for them.

I can see a drop in my work quality even with music that I pick. From my past experience with offices, distracting background activity tended to make me tunnel in on one thing. This was fine for tasks which did not require complex innovative thinking.

> you probably shouldn't hire people with ASD/AD(H)D for example

Which may be illegal to do as it's disability discrimination in many countries.

Edit: Of course sufferers are under no obligation to mention ADHD prior to hiring.

Noise may be disturbing but I can filter that out. I have a lot more problems with stuff that raises to the level of my consciousness and triggers processing there. Words like build or defect, grunts by known users/testers of my code, a manager mentioning aspects of the schedule or features that may have implications on code or architecture.

This is a good point. For me fairly random, non threatening noise and activity isn't that distracting. The hallway example was good. When you work across the hall from someone for a couple of years, a sigh can be distracting.

Why do these things need your attention now, even before it has been explicitly requested?

Because your subconscious brain said so. The vast majority of processing done by the brain, auditory or otherwise, is on a subconscious level with the ability to raise a priority interrupt.

Your subconscious should work for you, not the other way around. If it's requesting attention that's not needed, it's faulty and should be fixed.

what the fuck

If your subconscious is triggering on things you don't want it trigging on, it's a liability not an asset. Your OWN BRAIN is a LIABILITY. People are OK with that?

If your brain is not working right it should be retrained so that it is. This site is supposed to be full of programmers and engineers. How the fuck can anyone in here not know how to reprogramme their own brain?

What's possible is that while you were essentially forced to learn to concentrate (and therefore developed the skill), many don't know they have to learn. They're semi-interested in the events around them, don't know it's a problem and don't know the solution is to develop the necessary skills.

Chitchat in an open room filled with developers and their challenges is different to the drone of a loud machine, or chatter of factory workers whose interests might not overlap with yours. It's a bit like having the internet at your fingers - far too easy to be distracted by interesting chatter.

There are disciplines that have been teaching concentration for hundreds of years that produce people who can concentrate at will under pretty much any circumstance. To teach beginners they choose a very quiet, distraction-free environment.

Your advice seems to advocate throwing people into the deep end and taking a sink or swim approach. Train people to concentrate until it's something that's familiar and available to them on demand, and then they can do it in the face of distraction.

That you managed to make it work the way you did is great. Some people may have much more trouble than you did in similar circumstances.

> There are disciplines that have been teaching concentration for hundreds of years that produce people who can concentrate at will under pretty much any circumstance. To teach beginners they choose a very quiet, distraction-free environment.

Can you point at specific resources (name of the discipline, quintessential book about subject) for learning how to practice deep concentration, even in the face of very suboptimal environments?

Zen Buddhism is a classic example.

As delluminatus says, Buddhism. Zen, Vipassana, and others teach concentration as a tool (not the end goal).

There are many, many books. See Mindfulness in Plain English[1] for a good one that's available to read free online.

1. http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html and more directly http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe1-4.html

What is the intellectual output of Buddhism apart from religion and a couple of witty Koans?

Meditation is something different -- actually I find it has adverse effects on critical thinking.

The only thing that works for me is (courtesy Feynman):

1) State the problem.

2) Think hard.

3) Write down the solution.

I cannot do these steps for programming or math in "any environment". I could write Koans though.

If you're using meditation hoping to solve problems while your meditating, then you're doing it wrong. Meditation is like sleep or taking a rest day in a work out regimen. It's all about clearing your mind of noise so that when you finish and get back to the Feinman process then you're head is a little clearer and it's easier to focus.

Persons are different. If someone is balanced, already introverted and has no trouble living in the moment and being happy just breathing and moving then I maintain that meditation can have prolonged adverse effects outside the period of actual meditation.

If another person is extroverted, perhaps even to the point of being hyperactive, then meditation (as you described it) may help.

In general I see very little connection though between meditation and intellectual output. Many famous people who are known for taking to Buddhism did so after accomplishing their major works.

I also doubt that meditation, even if it leads to a rested mind, helps focusing in noisy environments.

[same person as above -- sorry dang!]

"I maintain that meditation can have prolonged adverse effects outside the period of actual meditation."

Why do you maintain this?

So, basically, meditation is like taking a nap? Then why prefer one over the other?

Exercising equanimity is a possible state while meditating. However, apart from equanimity, most Zen Buddhist meditations involve knowing and exercising the mind in different ways, such as applying (right) concentration and disentangling thought processes.

Note that I wrote that meditation teaches concentration as a tool, not as the end goal. Focus and concentration are useful outside of meditation, too. If you learned the concentration parts and left the rest, I'm sure the meditation people would think that you'd done yourself a disservice, but do you care?

> I cannot do these steps for programming or math in "any environment".

I have noticed that sometimes, when I'm really deep in flow on a problem, I can power through people starting a conversation standing right behind my back. I can't get into a flow state with such distractions, but sometimes I can maintain it. I imagine you've had similar experiences.

What if you had explicitly practiced concentration to the degree that you could enter a state of flow in those circumstances? With training, is that possible for some people? Most people?

> Train people to concentrate until it's something that's familiar and available to them on demand, and then they can do it in the face of distraction.

Or, you know, don't put them into a situation where they need yet another skill. Just give them a frickin' office.

Different strokes for different folks.

I hate slacking at work. Actually don't count it towards my hours unless it is compile time or reading something useful (biggest trap for me).

Yet what helps me is just removing 1. the interruptions (noise is OK) and ideally 2. the risk of interruptions.

1. helps me concentrate eventually. 2. helps me concentrate almost immediately.

So, no, privacy won't make me slack of and browse HN, that is what I do when I cannot do anything else but want to be in front of my PC anyway.

Good point. I agree that concentration is a learned skill.

We should recognise that the same self discipline stopping oneself from checking reddit every 5 seconds is closely related to the ability to retain concentration.

Has any study been done on noise-profiles ?

The office I program in now is kinda quiet, but not quite. There's a someone who plays with something that makes a random clicking sound and another person who snorts their phlegm backwards up their nose and another who constantly snacks. This near-silence but with very annoying sounds at random intervals I find very difficult to filter.

On the other hand I can program just fine in a noisy cafe or a building site (which I have done).

This thread may not be the place for it, but I'm intrigued to know what kind of career includes such a variety of conditions!

There's a TON of industrial programming that is leaps and bounds beyond CRUD applications. I develop machine vision applications, and although my days of programming in the field are behind me, I have seen many similar environments over the last 15 years.

I enjoy coding at airports. Headphones jacked in, sitting on a bench with people around is surprisingly good for focused work.

I've done some "high pressure" development as well (not as bad places as these - the excess noise levels would have killed my productivity)

While pressure helps and you won't sweat the small stuff, at some point you just wanted some peace and quiet and think about the problem

People have differing levels of ability to focus with auditory disruption.

That was indeed the only thing I decided I didn't want to allow myself to put up with.