Update On The HydraDock Project Status | Hacker News Reader

Update On The HydraDock Project Status

kickstarter.com

41 pointsbdcravens38 comments

> Due to some completely unexplainable incompetence by our China factory, we are stuck, and have to pause everything until we can arrange new money to move forward.

This happens so often here that it's becoming a meme. I think "has actually manufactured a real product in China before and knows the realities of the situation and how to manage the process" should be a requirement for a hardware kickstarter.

shame they can't manufacture in the US.

They could, but not at the price point they're trying to meet.

Probably not even at a higher price. There aren't a lot of high volume fabrication shops in the US.

The thing is, you're not even talking high volume at this stage. It's still relatively small production runs. They could have done their earlier products through a US based fabrication shop to get the cash flowing, then switched to a Chinese one once they'd got a steady income and could work through these hassles.

Given all of the Chinese electronics manufacturing, would the required components even be available in the US? I assume many if not all of the individual components would also be made in China... so maybe it's just more convenient (in addition to cheaper) to have the entire product made there?

They're talking about a few thousand items which isn't high volume.

I would have thought there exists a Chinese-manufacturer-agency-manager type service. But then again maybe that's part of the secret-sauce companies who design things in the West and manufacture in China have that I don't.

I've thought of a few amusing ideas I think would sell ok around holiday periods in the bargain bin by the checkout in hardware stores etc. but I have no idea how to go from idea to product, and I don't see how kickstart helps solve that problem. Assuming funding isn't an issue, how would I know my product is being manufactured to spec if we don't have a relationship of trust built on experience.

So I very much agree. It's not my area of expertise, and throwing money at the problem won't make me an expert.

So within your own country, you can take a production company to court if they fail to deliver on their contract. In the US, something of this price might even get the FTC involved. They production company could go bankrupt, and then you're still in the hole and your customers are in the hole, but at least there is some legal recourse that's reasonably accessible. You may also be able to get money to refund people depending on their current debts and the bankrupts process.

So if you outsource to China, what types of recourse or legal options are there. It sounds like they have a rep in China. What, if anything, can they do?

I think it would depend on who had more clout with the local government. That's almost always gonna be the local company, not the foreign one. Even very large foreign companies are crapped on by Chinese partners now and then, because there just aren't going to be repercussions if the CEO's brother's also the local party man.

They could file suit in the US, but this will likely not have any effect as Chinese courts rarely will enforce US Judgements.

Filing suit in China would likely have more effective results, but this requires a great deal more time and effort, understanding of a completely different legal system, and faith in that system.

Really, most Chinese companies really can just say "So sue me" and close the door.

For anyone looking for a Macbook dock, OWC has a nice product that has actually shipped already (I have one myself): https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/usb-c/owc/usb-c-dock

(And unlike the Kickstarter's claim of Apple-like elegance, this one actually matches the Macbook colors, rather than being the cheaper-looking white plastic.)

And apropos of anything else:

"HydraDock USB-C to 12V lighter plug MacBook car charger. There is also nobody making a car charger for the new MacBook. So again, we are. Understand that unlike regular USB, USB-C requires active components — a PC board for circuitry — to accurately comply with the USB 3.1 Power Delivery Specification and deliver the right DC power to connected devices. Our car charger is fully compliant with this specification and will provide years of reliable charging from your car's lighter socket to your MacBook. Without this charger, how are you going to power and charge your MacBook in your car?"

This is patently untrue.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019G036I2

this was available as early as February.

I like how in one of the demo videos a guy is plugging his macbook into the hydradock, but he has a thunderbolt apple monitor and all apple wireless accessories. So, this guy spent $1000+ on apple hardware that plugs into his macbook with one cable but instead he's going to use this dock.

Even with that dock, the Thunderbolt display is still incompatible.

Reminds me of ZenDock, another failed kickstarter laptop dock.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coleflournoy/zendock-th...

Sounds like HydraDock might be handling it better than Cole Flournoy did, however.

I loved what ZenDock stood for, but again, was a huge letdown.

Exactly why I will never, ever, ever buy from Kickstarter. Until there's a shipping product, I won't buy it at all. The pre-order age is dead, and this is a perfect example of this. Even if these people are honest, manufacturing from China is a skillset that is expensive and requires a lot of experience and boots on the ground.

But kickstarter is not a pre-order store! You are helping people to get started and in return may receive a version of the product you helped create.

That's what kickstarter's legal page may say to cover their ass. But that's not the reality, and it's definitely not the expectations of the "donors".

It's been my expectation. I've backed half a dozen small projects and two of them have failed to deliver.

This is directly due to the (in my opinion unethical) actions of established companies (like Pebble) treating it like a trendy preorder store. Kickstarter themselves have been clear on this since launch.

Eh. Kickstarter has happily, on multiple times, allowed, even promoted projects that are BLATANTLY against their terms of service:

- the infamous "Buy my child a laptop and send her to a coding camp" campaign (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5434721)

There's the TOS violations: "fund my life" - buying her daughter a laptop (camp provides IT resources" "fund tuition" - educational camp, pretty self-explanatory And then the rest of the tastelessness - I'm fairly certain a nine year old isn't at all involved in beer cozies saying "I drink like a girl, keep up!" etc.

- The Bike Index (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1073266317/the-bike-inde...)

1. It's a violation of "Kickstarter cannot be used to fund e-commerce, business, and social networking websites or apps." 2. This is a website, right? Then why: "Travel to the eleven biggest bike cities in the United States to meet with shop owners and give them the ability to register bikes for free (the cities: NYC, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Philadelphia, Madison, Tucson, Austin, Denver, D.C., and Minneapolis)." (Awesome, let's use Kickstarter to pay for me/us to take a trip through the US "to meet with bike shop owners and give them a chance to use the website"...) 3. "Offer region specific recommendations for reporting bike theft to the police." - so an extended goal of this site is to "recommend how to report to the police, customized for regions"?!? 4. Some stickers. 5. Oh, and you have to pay to register with the Index.

So yeah, let's not place too much stock in Kickstarter's "what we say, what we do, two different things, ignore that as we take our cut".

Worth noting that the HydraDock, after the Kickstarter run, did start taking pre-orders via their website, even as they hadn't fulfilled Kickstarter orders.

It's an investment. Crowd funding projects can fail. I know it doesn't feel that way, but that's the reality.

I've bought several CDs, comics and games off of various crowd funding sites (Kickstarter, Indigogo, et al) and I've been lucky to not have a failed project yet (although some have been over a year delayed).

Try to think of it as, "That's a nice thing to have. I'll help to see if I can make it possible," and realize it might not happen, or might happen late.

I usually forget about it and get surprised by a nice shiny book in the mail and am like, "Oh yea, I funded this!"

It's really really not an investment, it's a gamble.

An investment has the chance of paying off more if it's successful (e.g. I invest in a small company and if they turn out to be the next Oculus I would get a great return on my money).

With Kickstarter/indiegogo the best possible outcome is getting the product you wanted on time, the worst possible outcome is that you get nothing for your money and wait a load of time.

The problem (to me) is that both indiegogo and kickstarter have a financial incentive in downplaying the risks as they get their cut when the project finishes on their site (whether the product is delivered or not) so there's minimal incentive for them to push back on risky projects and/or make the project be very clear about the risks of their approach.

Personally I avoid hardware style kickstarters unless the creators have previous history of successful delivery.

I believe the problem here is that even though they hadn't fulfilled initial KS promises, they were taking pre-orders via their website.

This seems like an opportunity for Kickstarter to provide leverage: one project doesn't have any, but if Kickstarter acted as an intermediary for hardware contracting, they could help prevent and mediate situations like this, making the whole process much more trustworthy.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

If I were Kickstarter, I wouldn't touch any part of a project fulfillment process with a long pole. Precisely because of situations like one described in a linked update.

Yep, exactly. There's a lesson to be learned here, something like "production fulfilment isn't Kickstarter's area of expertise, and it isn't mine either."

I don't call on Kickstarter if I need my hot water system replaced or a suspicious looking mole removed, I call a subject matter expert.

They could, but it'd be an expensive choice. They'd need to stump up for inhouse supply chain experts and a bunch of insurance (production, shipping, lawsuits lawsuits lawsuits).

The whole model for Kickstarter is to push all the risk out to the fringes and collect a percentage. They've already become a verb. Adding high overheads and installing a lawsuit magnet doesn't see like the most effective decision.

I wonder if there's room for an Ebay/Paypal-esque situation. A third party that focuses on _just_ becoming that lawsuit magnet and using expertise to help shepherd projects through production issues like this.

Not easy for sure, but maybe possible if focused enough?

Something like this exists in the movie industry -- completion bonds/guarantees.

Specialist insurance companies take a budget percentage. In exchange they guarantee that a film, once financed, will be driven through production.

To ensure success they get intimate powers of scrutiny and review. In extreme scenarios they can take over a production entirely. Fire the director, change the script, the works.

There's a question - why didn't THIS project have insurance?

Many Kickstarter hardware projects are run by people who have no prior experience designing/manufacturing hardware and they often reach their "disruptive" low prices by cutting corners.

Becoming an intermediary would be a lot of risk... but maintaining a list of factories that have had problems, alternate names that they go by, and another list of factories that have successfully completed projects... that sort of reputation list might be very valuable.

What I don't understand is people in the comments on kickstarter still asking for their money back even though it was made clear from the start that kickstarter is not a store.

The risk should be clear by now!

You can't fix human nature with disclaimers. Also, some of these people may be first-time suckers.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com