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> I don't get why the CEO didn't do this as the first thing when he started his Android strategy.

I don't think Chen understands device strategy, or cares much for it. Because every BB user has been asking for the exact same thing you just mentioned -- for years -- and they still haven't done it.

It'll never beat Apple or Samsung in popularity. But if they just released a single solid high-end Android phone with a real BlackBerry keyboard every two years, that product line would quietly print free money forever. It's a niche product, but a fairly large niche.

> Because every BB user has been asking for the exact same thing you just mentioned -- for years -- and they still haven't done it.

Yes, that's true and so sad.

I would immediately pay $1,000 for a BB Classic running Android unseen.

I quite possibly would as well, though you've now got me sulking about there never being a proper successor to my beloved N900.

I would pay a lot for a good N900 successor with the same keyboard but a larger and more responsive touch screen.

Exactly. Since Termux[1][2] I've been pining for just this. Add a removable battery back in and I'd pay lots of money for this. The long rumored Blackberry Rome/Mercury seemed to be something like this [3] (minus the removable battery), and I think was expected in Q1 2017 or so.

[1] https://termux.com/

[2] https://github.com/termux

[3] http://www.slashgear.com/blackberry-mercury-rome-renderings-...

I completely agree. I had a T-mobile G2 with a Z spring keyboard, and I loved it. Even with swype motions in the Android keyboard, I still have to make a lot of corrections. I could type entire emails on a hardware keyboard. With a software keyboard, I try to keep things as terse as possible because it just takes too long.

> It's a niche product, but a fairly large niche.

How large?

I think many Android apps would adapt poorly to the BB aspect ratio.

Maybe, but it may not be a huge issue. I've had very good luck using apps split-screen in Android 7.0, which has a similar aspect ratio to classic BB devices.

Good point. I was going to disagree with you, but then I tested some apps just to make sure. I'm actually surprised how much stuff works with split-screen. I have apps that I use once in a blue moon, for example the Avianca app, and it works despite throwing the "this app may not work with split-screen" notification. Same for Spotify.

It's already a similar form factor as a small device in landscape mode.

Nougat's multi-window mode should make developers care even more about it.

But if they just released a single solid high-end Android phone with a real BlackBerry keyboard every two years, that product line would quietly print free money forever.

Android doesn't sit well with me, and I've given it several good runs. I'm also at this point firmly entrenched in the Apple ecosystem (AppleTV, Macs in the house, etc.)

And I'd still pay full retail price for such a phone. Seems to me that's BB's once last true shot at remaining a going entity. But, as already pointed out, Chen just seems incapable of getting it.

You're defining productivity as pure typing speed. This is exactly why the iPhone killed Blackberry.

All the Blackberry had was a hardware keyboard. Everything else about the platform and OS was vastly weaker. Apple and Google have real, full-fledged OSes (Blackberry eventually got this, but it was really a feature phone with QWERTY keyboard). I do all kinds of productivity and work tasks on my iPhone and the keyboard text input is a small part of that.

Having a real Web browser is mission critical for the work that I do. When the iPhone first came out, that was the No. 1 reason I went with the iPhone over a Blackberry.

The iPhone also has a very robust application ecosystem that is powered by the fact that all iPhones have come with large (by Blackberry standards) responsive touchscreens. I use project management software on my phone. I have note taking programs that sync with desktop. I can even SSH into a server and update html files.

Apple put real computers in users' pockets. Blackberry just made texting and writing emails (not even full-fledged emails either!) easier to write. That's it.

> Apple put real computers in users' pockets. Blackberry just made texting and writing emails (not even full-fledged emails either!) easier to write. That's it.

For some people email is all they're looking to do and that's why it feels so much more productive. Unfortunately for BlackBerry it's a pretty small niche.

I remember when the "new" Dodge trucks came out in the 1994. They were "ugly" according to most people, but Dodge/Chrysler found that 10% of the people loved them. That was enough to make a bunch of money. I think that a quality keyboard on a phone would be similar.

The problem is that for some reason most companies think they have to be growing tremendously or it's not worth being in business. You can make really good money on a niche - but I guess it's not enough for the current BB executives.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/the-21-greatest-...

You guys are forgetting another reason that Blackberry cratered: People didn't want to carry two devices. Even if a Blackberry meets your email needs, if its bad for everything else you want to do professionally and personally (apps, websites, music, audio books, etc.), it's not going to be enough. Business execs wanted to carry one device all day long, and Blackberry didn't offer enough to be an all day device.

You also have to keep in mind that companies switched from providing devices for employees to providing subsidizes for cell service. That's what my company does. They pay for my cell plan, but I bring my own device. When companies went away from providing people with Blackberries, that also helped doom the company.

Their core issue was that they didn't believe the iPhone was real when it was demoed in January 2007. They thought it was fake. It took them far too long to realize that Apple's vision was the right one. Had they got that immediately like Google, they might still be here today.

Blackberry did make great keyboards and their hardware was nice. BBM was an original messaging leader, but they rested on their laurels.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant a BB quality keyboard on an Android device. Completely agree with you on two devices.

I agree that BB should have come out with a high quality stock Android phone years ago. They went down that whole QNX route, and by then it was already too late.

They've always made very competitive hardware.

I don't know, we had a dead blackberry drawer at work - they kept dying on us. The phones were expensive, underpowered, and pretty plasticky.

But the hardware keyboards were great, as was the consistency of the interface that it allowed, something which Android and iOS need to learn about.

I also think that QNX/BB10 was a great platform. Probably the best mobile OS at the time of its release.

The platform and OS was good, but by the time BB10 hit, they were so far behind with apps and ecosystem.

Windows 8 was a really good mobile OS, but it had the same issue.

Blackberry Bold (classic) was barely able to run the OS and hold more than 5 (small, simple) apps.

Even without apps, it would run out of RAM, CPU, etc.

For a company which makes both the device and OS, there's no excuse for that kind of behavior.

Based on Playbook performance, using QNX was one of best choices they ever made. Before that, OK Labs was already deploying user-mode version of popular operating systems on OKL4 microkernel. It's what Blackberry should've done so they get benefits of both ecosystems + rock-solid core. Actually, they should've tried to outbid General Dynamics for OK Labs to just get their people to do the project using their experience. I'd have bought them instead of QNX probably but looking back I'd consider grabbing both. Then dual-license both stacks for personal use to let the OSS improvements roll in. :)

Actually, hes defining his productivity, and you're defining yours. Both of you can be right :) To your point, Apple did put a computer in my pocket, but it took away my control over it and it became _their_ computer. No root access, no control over updates, no way to copy files in and out of it, no way to control any aspect but what they let me. That is not my definition of a real computer, but an appliance. Sure, they're very successful and maybe lots of people do want an appliance, but its certainly not a real computer, the way a laptop with OSX, Linux, Windows is.

Um, there was no root on Blackberry

Well, sure.. it didn't run UNIX. But for for all intents and purposes you had 'root access'. You could install any BBOS you wanted, look at the entire filesystem and install any third party app (w/o signing, or appworld), and the OS exposed APIs which iOS doesn't. All of these things were out of the box and didn't rely on jailbreaking or exploiting vulnerabilities in the OS.

As far as keyboards are concerned, I've never had anything better than the Motorola Droid 4. It's a shame it was unusable with the stock software, the terrible display and the locked bootloader, but the keyboard was absolutely amazing. My fingers have always been too big for BB phones.

About the exiting hardware business, I don't think it will be too long before BB finally crashes down and gets sold. The differentiator for them has been hardware since they ditched BBOS for Android (not saying it was a bad decission, that thing was horrible), now what's left is some java apps and some branding to put on some random ODM... Until a Microsoft, Lenovo etc gets in and buys them for their IP

Totally agree. Droid 4 (and Psion 5) have awesome keyboards.

My understanding is that there are several patents in this space that need to be licensed, coupled with everyone wants to copycat the best selling phones, and don't want to design a "niche" product that looks old fashioned.

Google's Andy Rubin has a patent on one design!

https://www.google.com/patents/US8488778

It's also difficult to design a slider with a large screen and not have the phone be unwieldy.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/15/5104704/i-come-not-to-pra...

"And that's where you run into trouble with physical keyboards, according to Motorola's Rick Osterloh. Keyboards "make it so you have to cut the screen size down, or have a slider form factor which adds a considerable amount of cost, thickness, and weight to the product."

> About the exiting hardware business, I don't think it will be too long before BB finally crashes down and gets sold

That thought ought to scare current OEMs: I'm sure BB will "pivot" into IP Licensing thereafter. Then again they don't need to be sold before they start doing that

Oh man. Something like the (now cancelled?) BlackBerry Vienna/Rome/Mercury. I'd buy that thing the day it comes out.

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/135924-blackberry-vienna-mer...

Yes. As far as productivity is concerned Android or iPhone did not match my blackberry. I remember typing out entire class assignments on my phone during train journeys and sending hundreds of BBM messages every day. I barely do it with iPhone. There are simply too many distractions.

I think Blackberry is a bit like Yahoo! where they focused too much on sales and marketing and did not invest well in engineering and product design. When even Gingerbread Android could detect dates in emails and let me create Calendar events based on that Blackberry could not do such a simple thing.

>What they just need to do is to put Android on the Blackberry Classic or some phone with a similar form factor. That's it.

I would buy this so fast. There's slim pickins for android phones w/ keyboards.

Are there any pickins for android phones with keyboards with even remotely modern hardware (I'd settle for anything with a 1080p screen probably)? Seems extremely limited, I was unable to find any viable options last I checked. I hate the candy bar form factor but it seems as though it really has won out unfortunately.

Blackberry's own Priv from late last year is the only modern choice. Reviews generally indicate that it was good, but not great. Had minor issues with heating up and having a clicky back I think. Was mostly stock Android aside from a few small tweaks.

I looked at it but both price and lack of root and bootloader unlocking are extremely prohibitive for me. The keyboard is really its only appealing feature.

I can get a device like a OnePlus 3 for about 60% of the price and it has better hardware to boot. In terms of storage, RAM and CPU it's more comparable to a OnePlus 2 which is about 40% of its price.

Keyboard is nice, but not double the price and lose features I rely upon like AdAway and XPrivacy kind of nice.

Agreed, those are among the reasons I haven't picked one up either. Not sure what price One Plus 3 is, but it's worth noting new Privs on Ebay generally fluctuate between 299 and 350 USD, which I'm guessing may be similar to OP3.

The problem is, a keyboard adds to the device cost quite a bit. And most people, despite saying they want a keyboard, are not willing to pay above and beyond for it. They want the same price point they're already at. So that means cutting costs elsewhere.

Yes! I own a BB classic and it's the best. The problem is BB has larger ambitions, and can't just reconcile itself to serving the relatively small market of power users. They want to be everywhere. They could charge a premium for Classic and just occupy that niche, but no, they have to throw it all away. I'm just hoping that whoever designed Classic is going to get frustrated and go do some open source hardware. Now that would be a silver lining.

A couple months ago I took the letters off the keys on my iPhone (my keyboard looks like a grid of white squares, jailbreak required). I can confirm touch typing on a touch screen is definitely possible and actually very convenient. I don't even miss the lettering anymore. Besides the fact that blank keys just look cool, I've seen a notable increase in my typing speed.

The BB's keyboards are still unmatched.

Yeah, but does that really matter any more? I've found that my iPhone's speech-to-text is pretty darned good, as long as I speak with a slightly staccato cadence to make it clear where the word divisions are. I can do that much more quickly than I can type. Generally I only have problems when the connection to the server doing the conversion is poor.

I've never used Android's speech-to-text, but I have to assume it is equivalent. Can an experienced BB typist really outperform speech-to-text conversion?

There is more than just creating text. The BB keyboard is also essential part of the UI, you trigger stuff through the keyboard all the time (think of VIM or terminal based apps).

Even if just talk about text creation which involves editing. Speech-to-text is impressive but once you start to edit your text you need a keyboard and perfect cursor control.

I really liked the clicking ball on the T-mobile G1. You used the ball to move the cursor and then could click it to select. It was useful for one-handed operation and fine text editing.

I am not comfortable having my email conversations out loud, particularly when surrounded by other people in an office.

How does it work with code though? I've never used either iPhone or Android stt, but I don't imagine them handling a shell very well

I feel like an idiot talking to an inanimate object, I never use text-to-speech. Besides, it's nice to be able to send a text on the bus without being That Text-to-Speech Guy that everyone hates.

My experience with iPhones speech to text is mixed. It does a good job with short common words if you talk slowly and enunciate, but screws up proper names constantly and struggles with some sentences.

Worse, when it gets something wrong, it can be completely wrong. It doesn't help that editing is kind of a pain on iOS either, with annoying long touches and the still awkward text selection system.

And the speech to text only works reliably if you speak with the right accent, for most of the planet it's appalling.

Hardware keyboards are even more apalling for people who don't use a standard QWERTY US-English keyboard layout.

Did they not produce regional variations? I must admit a friend of mine who's a lawyer in Russia had an old curve with a QWERTY keyboard, but I put that down to the fact that for security reasons the law firm gave everyone French blackberrys that were roaming in Russia rather than Russian provided phones.

It's easier to adapt to another keyboard layout than it is to change your accent. Not to mention that you can remap it in software (or at least you would be able to on rooted Android...) and that most latin layouts aren't that different from US QWERTY, at least compared to the difference in accents.

It can be annoying when typing in a Cyrillic-based language (and presumably other alphabets), especially when it's not your native language. It's also rather annoying for kids who are learning to type.

Just saying, as an ex-n900 user, that niche market is much smaller than we think. I wouldn't go back to a n900 equivalent today. Typing accents in French or non-latin characters was pretty annoying.

Does it work without Internet?

Tbh, I find it kind of creepy to have Apple, Google, Microsoft or Amazon listen to everything I say. I prefer keyboards

Anything typed can probably get scarfed up in a dozen ways, anyway, because you don't know what's going on in the apps, platform, or malware. So speech and kbd are probably around the same privacy.

iOS dictation does indeed work without internet. (Siri does not, however.)

My experience with Android's STT:

Accents: Supposedly it works well for US english. I don't speak US english. Trying to force it usually works worse than when I had to force myself to speak Finland-Swedish for my old Nokia phones.

Punctuation: It's really annoying to have to say "dot" or "comma" all the time, and it often seems to get it wrong anyway.

Vocabulary: When messaging I rarely only use "common" words. Gaming stuff gets garbled (I just tried, and it interpreted "raid at 8" as "Friday 8"), and band names or tech-related stuff doesn't fare much better. Bonus points if it's a weird spelling or international name. Good luck getting it to recognize Movits!, Dimaa, or Nekrogoblikon, you'll need it.

Correction: I often say the bad thing, especially when under pressure from the STT timeout. AFAIK there is no way to have it delete the last N words.

Multiple languages: I switch between Swedish and English often enough that I usually forget to switch keyboard. For a keyboard this means getting wrong autocorrections, for voice input this means getting garbage. I know Android STT supports selecting multiple languages, but then it gets confused and switches back and forth all the time.

At this point, I basically only use the voice input for setting bed/egg timers with Google Now. I would use it for navigation home/to work, but I don't have a car and Maps' bike instructions are awful.

Even though I would have really liked to see blackberry have a real try at this, It looks like this is just too small of a niche anyway : http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/15/5104704/i-come-not-to-pra...

Is the GUI editor analogy really apt?

You can do most things with keyboard shortcuts in Kate and Eclipse.

I see where he's coming from, but totally agree with you. I've worked with people who refuse to consider a GUI editor because emacs is what they learned in school and it can do everything, but they don't actually configure the damn thing. Then they are speechless when I refactor, find refs, regex replace: all at the keyboard. Yes, this is a Java based IDE... no, you don't have to click on enormous shiny buttons to do work. Also you don't need to understand lisp to configure it, wow!

Rant over, sorry for derailing the thread. This is a touchy subject.

I don't think they're allowed to put Android on a BB classic form factor - the screen dimensions don't scale relative to regular phones, and as far as I know, Google demands certain layouts to simplify app development.

> After a short time you start to touch type; although it's possible with an iPhone too

On my Android phone, I've even begun "touch swiping," using swipe gestures without looking while leaning heavily on the autocompleter.

And posting random giberish more often than not if you're like me.

By any chance have you ever used any feature like Swype or Speech to Text?

I see many older folks still use it like those 2-ways of yesteryear. Unsurprisingly they aren't too comfortable responding via text.

Android speech to text works phenomenally well in my experience. It's much faster than typing. However, in most circumstances it's socially awkward to use it.

Is it also socially awkward to use a gesture typing function like Swype? Because that's what many used before Speech to Text was so good and it's still faster than thumb typing.

There are many cheap Android phones with keyboards EX: Samsung Stratosphere SCH-i405 for 35$.

Yes, BB may have had better keyboards, but I don't think it's really that huge of a market.

I own a Priv and this news makes me sad. The Priv is not perfect, but it's the only phone that allows me to run my company for most part of the day without a laptop.