Visual Studio 2010 released
microsoft.com
microsoft.com
EDIT: wanted to ADD and didn't notice I was replying to myself
That said, I once thought Emacs was bloated. Now, it's quite nimble compared to other programming tools.
On Emacs ... you still have to pay attention to the loaded extensions, and if you've got dozens of them (especially the Jdee extension, with all the dependencies) it can be as bloated as a full IDE (and it shows in startup times).
While he's fat, it's not clear why it matters. (It matters to his health but not to the bus passengers.)
In what ways does the VS "bloat" matter?
Basically, it will not run on a small netbook. Not at acceptable speeds.
And it still runs Django faster than my company-issued 4 gig Windows Core 2 Duo laptop.
So, "bloat" is relative to your machine. What's "bloated" today is not going to be bloated 5-10 years from now, and vice versa. If this isn't what you're talking about, you're using the wrong word.
Actually, bloat is measurable. It's the difference between being able to use a tiny netbook for a whole day without bothering to recharge it (provided you have a big enough battery pack) and having to be tethered to a desk for the whole day.
Of course I would love to have 16 cores of pure performance, 32 gigs of RAM, a couple terabytes of wicked fast SSD storage. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to fold it up, throw it in my shoulder bag and leave the office in order to work from a charming cafe while I watch the sunset. At least not for the next five years or so.
Everybody has priorities.
I haven't used the later in ~12 months but I don't remember them being particularly speedy in comparison.
The only things I truly find insufferably slow in VS are the visual designers which do code-gen "on the fly".
plus the option for commercial support.
For Asp.net, my sister went on a small project and I don't understand why the hell it does take lot of time to process pages.
I'm an ungrateful sod, I know..
I honestly don't find it to be that bloated either. it loads up very quickly, and it only loads things as they are needed. If you never once use the Entity Framework for example, nothing related to it will ever load. This is different from 2008 which eager loaded most stuff.
There was a huge push to get 2010 up to performance snuff towards the end of development, and I think they mostly succeeded.
The new support for MEF for extending things is dramatically better than VSIP, which was a nightmare no matter how you sliced it. MEF is actually quite pleasant.
I'm an ex MS employee, and so feel no need to promote it blindly. I do think, overall, it's the best VS yet. Take it for what you will.
What I really wanted to address was performance. There was indeed a huge push after Beta2 to improve perf. At the end of the day 2010 is still slower than 2008 and eats up more memory. I guess that's an accomplishment if sucking less is considered good. But will people upgrade? I don't know. Hopefully because that's good for me. But I am pessimistic and currently looking for other employment as the experience was that bad.
Why was it so bad? Well I feel most of the pain points could have been avoided. Management ignored a lot of the performance/memory issues last summer and had an attitude of ship ship ship with NO regard for quality. I was responsible for reporting an overall grade for the areas I tested. I reported them to be poor and fair. I also listed all the known bugs in those areas. Management boosted the rating to good on the basis that memory and performance bugs don't count.
Let me reemphasize that last point: I was told memory and performance bugs DID NOT count towards the overall quality rating of the product. This was management's attitude through most of the product cycle. We could never give an honest assessment of the product because they would challenge it and argue that it wasn't that bad.
I believe their reason was simple for doing this. They need to take the data to their managers and up the chain of command to paint a pretty picture of how great the product is. Even if that's an illusion. Basically telling the truth of product quality is punished. If I lied about quality managers would be ecstatic about how a great a job we did. If I told the truth about quality instead of thanking me for figuring out where customer pain points might be the attitude was ALWAYS this should have been found earlier. The problem is many times I did find it earlier and they did their best to bury it before the next meeting they were heading off too report product quality.
I will say this. IntelliSense is much better for C++. Even though other native tools might suck. IntelliSense teams seems to be doing a pretty good job. It has always has been my favorite VS feature.
And is 2010 worth the upgrade for most people? Hard to say. There's nothing in it that is truly mind blowing or "must have", it just iterates and improves a ton of stuff. I don't think .NET 4 alone is a compelling enough reason, most will remain happy with 2/3/3.5 for the time being.
With all that said, I still stand behind VS2010. I think it still came together well. I really do hope I get to use it as my day to day environment, I like it that much more than 2008. I'm actually impressed how well it emerged out of the chaos that is DevDiv :)
And yes, MS has dropped the ball on native dev quite a bit. It's definitely an afterthought. But most people who are looking to get 2010 are very much in the managed camp.
Good! Well, good for internal I mean. If managed/WPF/etc are the future of Windows, then MS needs to start eating their own dog food and using those techs for their apps. It drives me utterly nuts to think of all the neat tools that show up in Windows that other MS divisions flat out ignore.
Rumor has it WPF is going the way of Windows Forms. It will be supported but no new features. With that in mind, think of all the UI frameworks MS has had wrapping up Win32: MFC, ATL/WTL, WinForms, WPF. Nothing seems to stick. Office just writes their own stuff that they KNOW they can depend on it being there. Duplication sure. But DevDiv is notorious for releasing things and deprecating the past "great" technology within a few years.
There is another reason they ignore the new tools: managed is slow for the client. For the server world managed is great and has won. Nobody in their right mind would write native web apps. They write the stuff that needs to be native (db, webserver) then glue the app together with python, ruby, C#, or Java (I know, a vast oversimplification of webapps).
Clients don't have the advantage of the webapps. We don't have a lot of computer to do things in parallel. Every millisecond counts to make the app appear as responsive as possible.
Why does managed suck for the client? JITing is slow and the code it generates isn't nearly as good as a compiler. NGENing is possible but still slow because of garbage collection and marshaling data between native and managed code. Little things like that add up and slow down responsiveness a lot on the UI side of things and that is what the user notices and complains about.
For C#, VS is absolutely wonderful, and I haven't seen an IDE for a statically typed language I like better.
Code Contracts provide a language-agnostic way to express coding assumptions in .NET programs. The contracts take the form of pre-conditions, post-conditions, and object invariants. Contracts act as checked documentation of your external and internal APIs.
(If whoever thought my comment needed downvoting would like to explain why -- because it's too obvious? because it's wrong? because there's nothing at all wrong with a major software vendor making totally false and unreasonable claims in their promotional materials? -- then I am, seriously although not literally, all ears.)
Poor Eiffel; its doom was to lead the way, and get picked apart by its children. Maybe if it hadn't looked like Pascal it might have done better. That said, I'm really surprised that design by contract hasn't been incorporated more widely, before now.
It all depends on how you define "quality".
And your down-votes could be attributed to the topic of the thread. Anything that casts doubt over Microsoft's One True Way is not welcome in certain message threads.
disclaimer - I wrote Nitriq
When MS bought out .NET - was there any particular IDE or language development environment that was distributed for free to encourage (especially young) developers to code in it? Or did you always have to pay for Visual Studio?
I'm not slagging off MS. I'm actually genuinely interested in getting my hands dirty with some Visual C# now that Windows 7 is shaping up to be quite a nice OS to use. It just seems odd that I have to pay someone so that I can write stuff for their OS.
Or just your favourite text editor coupled to the build system that comes with the .NET framework.
You could even write an Emacs mode for this.
Unless you develop on something non-Windows, you are already paying Microsoft in order write stuff for their OS.
And that's their evil plan. It's sheer elegance in its simplicity ;-)
That said, with a $900 machine, ( quad i5, 4 gig ram ) with a last gen video card the most recent RC runs just as fast as VS 2008 did.
Not that I'm bitter, stuck in VS2008 all day on a circa 2003 machine, stingy ass employers.
They can afford to pay 100k+ for engineers, but not to give them decent machines..
* C# (and possibly others) compile faster * Startup slower than VS 9 (marginal) * Human perf is higher due to better auto-complete etc
Bottomline, if you're happy with VS 9 on your machine (you don't find it too slow), VS 10 is going to be similar.
That said, I was surprised that it wasn't a bigger bump. Turns out builds are more CPU-bound that I thought.
Besides that though, they seem pretty similar.
Looking forward to using IntelliTrace.
This has been by far and away my #1 complaint for over three years (http://blog.adamsmith.cc/2007/03/complaints-about-visual-stu...). It is a huge deterrent from taking advantage of most of C#'s beauties.
That's because it includes an MSDN sub. Still astronomical, I know.
However, Ultimate also includes a full MSDN license.
So does the professional version at $1,199
But yes, still insane.
http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/archive/2010/04/06/c-0x-core-la...
In fact, I've read existing STL-heavy C++ (returning std::vector<std::string> by value from functions, for example) will sometimes double in performance when compiling with a C++0x-capable compiler.
I wish the new historical debugger worked for C++.
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MSDN Subscribers & WebsiteSpark/BizSpark members can download VS 2010 Monday morning.
The final release of VS 2010 & .NET 4 will be available ~10am PST.
Free VS 2010 Express Editions + VS 2010 Trial editions will also be available for download.
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Seriously though, VS and Eclipse compare quite similarly on features. There are also free Express editions of most MS tools which cover perhaps 80% of the features so the price isn't really an issue.
Major new threading framework which let's you write things like:
Parallel.For(0, 100, delegate(int i)
{
doWork(i);
}
);
data.AsParallel().Sum(); //does exactly what you think
Bring the database to a grinding halt when it tries to service 1000s of request for different rows in the same table at the same time in parallel rather than just access each line in order and sum them?
the AsParallel() should make it clear that you're taking an existing data-set (retrieved in whatever manner you like) and signifying you'd like to execute parallel operations on it.
This is far to large a topic for a HN comment. Here is a link to some links to get you started: http://hnsl.mn/cNpxVs
Supporting c89 is supporting some of c99. As pointed out from some of the things you linked to, not fully supporting c99 means there are places where bugs are silently introduced (see snprintf) and, more importantly, my code that compiles under various c99 compilers doesn't compile under the stuff Microsoft ships.
I see SharePoint on a job posting and it goes into the trash immediately...
Anyone know the status of ironruby within this release?
Highly unlikely. However, VS2010 will give you a choice of Runtime versions from 4 downwards. VS2008 will give you a choice of Runtime versions from 3.5 downwards.
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowssdk/archive/2010/04/07/coming-s...
Empower is going away May 21st; Any other options?
Isn't that awesome?
Especially when your screen is 9.7".
But I suspect what you are really saying is "wouldn't it be better if you had a completely different device by a different company running different software with a significantly less polished and pleasant experience every single time you use it for the very rare occasion that there's some code in a HN comment or linked article which is complete enough to copy and run, and also in a language which you have an environment and libraries for, and also which does something you are interested in and also which you are motivated enough to interrupt your reading to run".
In which case, the answer is no.