India’s Space Agency Hits New Milestone With Satellite Launch | Hacker News Reader

India’s Space Agency Hits New Milestone With Satellite Launch

blogs.wsj.com

224 pointsalphakappa48 comments

I've been to India's Satish Dhawan Space Centre for work. They do a lot with the resources they have been given.

The on-base museum exhibits show how their weather and communications satellites help India with its national development goals (agriculture, connecting the countryside, etc.).

Space is hard. India has very reliable rocket (PSLV) that gets satellites to orbit. They have also successfully sent a probe to Mars, which is a real accomplishment for any space program. I was living in China at the time, and the Chinese felt a bit shown up by what they consider to be a less developed economy.

> I was living in China at the time, and the Chinese felt a bit shown up by what they consider to be a less developed economy.

And they should. I and probably a lot others are rooting for India! It is great to see these types of accomplishments by other less resourced programs.

> The on-base museum exhibits show how their weather and communications satellites help India with its national development goals.

My question is: Can India achieve those goals with less money using a commercial satellite launching company like SpaceX? And if India does have a competitive advantage in launching satellites, should it be run by the government or as a private enterprise?

India has been launching rockets and satellites since 1960s. SpaceX wasn't there, then ;)

ISRO launch vehicles (PSLV and GSLV MkII) do have competitive advantages in launching commercial payloads (up to 2.5 tonne). They already have a commercial/marketing arm called Antrix Corporation[1]. Also, there are a few private launch brokers like Earth2Orbit[2] who can procure ISRO launches. However, ISRO doesn't yet have heavy lift (4+ tonne to GTO, 8+ tonne to LEO) launch vehicle. They are working on it, and they have a new heavy lift launcher called LVM3 (aka GSLV MkIII)[3]. First developmental flight is scheduled in Dec 2016.

[1] http://www.antrix.gov.in/

[2] http://www.earth2orbit.com/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_Satellite_Launc...

Less Money ? Already ISRO's budget is a tiny blip in the government's annual outlay. About $1.5 billion

http://www.isro.gov.in/budget-glance

Should ISRO be run as a private organisation to achieve better efficiency ?

I don't think so, because, despite being a government organisation, the bureaucracy in ISRO is next to nothing. The organisation hierarchy is relatively flat for that size. There are six or seven levels between the lowest grade scientist and the chairman. I think Scientist B to H. The chairman reports directly to the Prime Minister. Even the defence heads don't get this privilege. If you imagine any private organisation of that size, there are a lot more inefficiencies in their org structure and the general operations. I'm not able to draw specific comparisons at the moment.

ISRO has also not net produced a Falcon 9, yet. That I think is mostly because of their budget constraints and not because of organisational inefficiencies.

Now, can a new private company do better than ISRO? Specifically, can a private company build a Falcon 9 like rocket more efficiently than ISRO can? In theory, absolutely. In reality, probably no.

Per ISRO's budget estimate, you are looking at raising at least $3-4 billion for a 2 year runway. Even if you start small you are looking to raise in the $100 million range for your seed round. Unlikely that any domestic VC in India will foot this bill.

So you'll need foreign money. Given the security concerns around space programs, govt will not let foreign money fund such programs. Even if they did, it'll subject the foreign investors to so much red tape that the investors will get fed up and decide not to invest.

Launch capability is also strategic: you don't want to hand your spy satellites over to a foreign government for launch.

Primary payload of this launch was ScatSat-1 satellite[1]. ScatSat-1 contains a scatterometer to monitor weather conditions over ocean (weather forecasting, cyclone prediction etc.). ScatSat-1 data can predict/reveal bad weather conditions as early as five days before the actual bad weather conditions occur.

ScatSat-1 satellite is a stopgap replacement for OCSCAT payload, which stopped functioning recently, onboard Oceansat-2 satellite.

ISRO's Oceansat-2 data is widely used by various weather and space agencies such as ESA, NOAA, NASA/JPL[2][3][4] etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCATSAT-1

[2] https://earth.esa.int/web/guest/missions/3rd-party-missions/...

[3] https://www.wmo-sat.info/oscar/satellites/view/344

[4] https://podaac.jpl.nasa.gov/dataset/OS2_OSCAT_LEVEL_2B_OWV_C...

I'm a huge fan of India's space program. This latest accomplishment is awesome. However, I can't help but think what an unfortunate name for an instrument and subsequently a satellite.

Haha! Yea! NASA also has one, named RapidSCAT.

Non-paywalled stories:

http://spacenews.com/indias-pslv-launches-7-satellites-in-a-...

http://www.firstpost.com/india/isro-successfully-launches-ps...

"Engineers repurposed spare parts from previous satellites to construct ScatSat, according to the Indian Space Research Organization"

This only happens in India. I am saying this in a good way.

Source: https://spaceflightnow.com/2016/09/26/india-declares-success...

Google linked link which is not subject to paywall: http://bit.ly/2cGd7E7

This is a great achievement for a developing country. A space race between India and China is probably better than an arms race. Kudos India

For those interested, there is an ISRO subreddit at www.reddit.com/r/ISRO which is well updated.

Yes, the moderators are ex employees of ISRO iirc.

Is it possible to work for ISRO with an OCI card?

not sure of OCI card entry to ISRO but you can work as a contractor with various indian govt agencies through mygov.in. check it out.

Indian government agencies have weird recruiting procedures and age limits as far as I can tell. I am not sure if things changed now. Perhaps getting work at Antrix would be different ?

as an Indian techie, have always looked up to ISRO from my younger days.

I am curious if someone from the India can comment on what the coverage for this has been in the local media. I know its been a bit controversial.

What controversy ? If your referring to the cost of the ISRO program - we are very proud of the Space Program in India, both media and People.There is no doubts about the cost effectiveness of the Space Program. It is just the western media, who highlight the short commings of other areas of India and compare it to our Space Program.

Adding to this. The funny thing about the western MSM is that they only noticed the Mars and Moon missions. What they didn't pay attention to was the payback in terms of human lives improved just by ISRO's satellites helping with remote sensing, weather forecasting, agriculture planning, forest management etc.. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Remote_Sensing)

I would even argue that ISRO's primary mission is focused on solving "today's Humanity" problems rather than "Star Trek" style explorations. Just because they sent up a couple of spacecraft like Chandrayaan or Mangalayaan doesn't take away from that primary mission but doesn't stop the MSM from finding reason to complain. Weird.

And for all those highlighting the short comings of other areas of India compared to its space program, do you recall what other aspects of life in the US were like at the initiation and heights of its space program?

Just as in the US, benefits of India's space efforts will soon begin to show up in the life of the average Joe/Jane, if it hasn't already.

In 1999, a devastating cyclone hit the Indian state of Odisha killing 10000 people.[1] In 2013, Odisha was again hit by a cyclone of similar magnitude[2]. However due to advance warnings by weather satellites[3] 550,000 people were evacuated and only 45 people died this time. What is the worth of 10,000 human lives?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Odisha_cyclone

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Phailin#Odisha

[3] http://www.skymetweather.com/content/weather-news-and-analys...

Indian media is a TRP hungry machine and it optimizes news for TRP. There are other competing new issues which are driving that currently.

Also its sort of given that ISRO does all these awesome things often so its not a like a surprise anymore.

More like more new news to solidify our pride in ISRO.

Something like the next solar mission Aditya(planned to launch 2019), Moon mission Chandrayaan 2(planned to launch 2018), Mars mission Mangalyaan 2(planned to launch 2020) would be interesting.

I'm from India, I can say local media mentioned it as major success launch & especially placing satellites in two different orbits. I think it includes playload from foreign countries like US.

Btw, why you think its controversial?

"I know its been a bit controversial." Curious, what do you know? Did you mean controversial in western media? In that case, yes, I agree.

The local media (and people) see this as something to be proud of, there is not much debate about the money being useful elsewhere.

Yes in the Western media that's exactly how its been reported which is why I asked what the local coverage has been. I don't get local Indian coverage where I live and this is a place to discuss things no?

Why is asking a question and being interested in the subject offensive?

You can find a lot of Indian media online e.g.

[1] thehindu.com

[2] swarajyamag.com

[3] firstpost.com

...

It's not offensive to me. I didn't downvote you.

As an Indian, I can see why some others could've found it offensive. Anytime ISRO does a newsworthy launch, some Western newspaper writes that the money could be used to build toilets. Sometimes, the newspaper is a rag, but Indian media prefers to cover that (sometimes more than the launch itself). So it's a touchy point. If I had not had my coffee, I'd probably be offended too. I think you were unlucky (vs having said something offensive).

They are just jealous of us. And scared that we are getting better day by day, threatening their supremacy. Hence the suggestion of building toilets from space money ...

I disagree, but thanks for playing.

You can find Indian by going to Google News and selecting India edition. There are many newspapers with websites.

What controversy? The govt. of India needs income, and by selling space launch services that are actually profitable while furthering the nation's science and engineering capabilities is the best use of tax money it can make.

Not to speak about remote sensing for land management / agriculture, something that is quite vital for a country so overcrowded and with such a volatile weather.

there is no 'controversy' in India because man on the street is just amazed that Govt can achieve something at all sucessfully, let alone something of this magnitude. They don't care about 'money can be spent on toilets' dilemma because they know that money will go straight into politicians pockets if it was reallocated to 'toilets'. So its not 'toilets vs space' its 'corruption vs space'.

Thank you for the insight.

You mean that racist cartoon from NY Times? [1]

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29502062

The coverage in Indian media has all been in praise of the ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation). You can check these links to get a flavour (please use adblock):

- http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/pslv-launches-eight-sa...

- http://www.firstpost.com/india/isro-successfully-launches-ps...

- http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/web-edits/pslv-c35-...

I'm not even in India, and there's no controversy even in western media (reading the other comments), there's nothing at all in this wsj article either.

What are you talking about? I'm genuinely curious?

Now I'm curious, what western media has presented it as controversial? All I've seen here in Germany around this launch has been fairly factual or quite positive, but most of it were just short "this has happened" notices.

India is a vigorous democracy that has sent an orbiter to Mars. Yet its children are more likely to starve than children in far poorer nations in Africa. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/opinion/half-these-kids-ar...

I guess you're unaware that satellites are used for

    Space Based Inputs for Decentralized Planning (SIS-DP)
    National Urban Information System (NUIS)
    ISRO Disaster Management Support Programme (ISRO-DMSP)
    Biodiversity Characterizations at landscape level- http://bis.iirs.gov.in
    Preharvest crop area and production estimation of major crops.
    Drought monitoring and assessment based on vegetation condition.
    Flood risk zone mapping and flood damage assessment.
    Hydro-geomorphological maps for locating underground water resources for drilling well.
    Irrigation command area status monitoring
    Snow-melt run-off estimates for planning water use in down stream projects
    Land use and land cover mapping
    Urban planning
    Forest survey
    Wetland mapping
    Environmental impact analysis
    Mineral Prospecting
    Coastal studies
    Integrated Mission for Sustainable Development (initiated in 1992) for generating locale-specific prescriptions for integrated land and water resources development in 174 districts.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Remote_Sensing

There are probably other uses as well. This argument of "cant-go-to-space-till-every-other-problem-is-solved" makes no sense. You need space programs to solve major problems. If you take away all the budget from space programs and other research, and then put all of that into providing food, it'll take much longer to get rid of poverty. Think "teaching a man to fish" vs "giving a man a fish".

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