Inside the Former US Embassy in Tehran, Iran (2015)
thecitylane.com
thecitylane.com
It's not complicated, the US does bad shit, too. Sometimes it blows up in our face.
The Iranian government was cozying up to the Soviets and bringing in communist forces into their government. There is good reason to believe that the Soviets were pulling off the kind of suriptitious legitimate-looking takeover that they had so successfully executed in Eastern Europe before everyone realized what was happening. Just like our support of Pinochet in Chile, it was a choice between two evils. We did what we though had to be done. In the years preceding the installation of the Shah, the iron curtain had fallen around Eastern Europe, China had fallen to Mao, the Soviets had tested their nukes and built an arsenal, Korea had been split, etc. This was an all out struggle.
Torturing or killing people in the name of straw man containment doesn't sound as a valid excuse anymore.
> legitimate-looking takeover that they had so successfully executed in Eastern Europe before everyone realized what was happening.
This is plain false. Takeover of Eastern Europe was a result of USSR winning the war that Germany lost. It was arranged so that USSR gets Eastern Europe that it has already took. Everybody realized what was happening.
Don't see how it could happen in Iran, much less how post-communist Iran would be worse these days than jihadist nuclear Iran you now have.
As for communism proving non-viable, how can you possibly judge actions in the 50s by what surprised everyone in the 80s? And we have every reason to believe that communism would have spread further and lasted longer if not for the extraordinary Western efforts to prevent and undermine them. They would certainly have taken all of Asia and South America, for instance.
The thing is, your ends don't justify your means. It was Stalin's dogma and boy was he wrong. You can't justify crimes with "or what would have happened". The fall of communism just makes that apparent.
However, what do your ideals of democracy worth when you overthrew democratic regimes?
They most certainly could have.
Not necessarily. The Soviet Union sponsored plenty "nationalist" movements which are only superficially different from religious.
If you're taking issue with my description of life under communism, then own your stance. Say what you really think about communism.
You can't compare different cultures like that
Do you think that Nazi Germany and the USSR were just "trying to maximize their own power and access to resources"?
When we compare morality, we compare morality among contemporaries.
And also those three proxies I mention above, none of them are about resources but regional dominance. What would the resource even be? Iran has its own oil. In fact what's going on in Yemen is basically a proxy war between Saudia Arabia and Iran.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12575423
and for example
Why does it have to be secular as a prerequisite? Saudia Arabia is not only not secular but its not democratic either.
It's not a stretch to say these agencies were acting as proxies for their home oil company's interests. So logically US and and British petroleum companies went to Iran and did bad shit.
I'm afraid I have to contradict you and say, yup, out of all the powers acting during the 20th century, judged by capacity multiplied by intent, you were the best guys. You saved the world from totalitarinism again and again, and the free world thanks you.
In the last 20th Century, the USA definitely weren't the "good guys", perhaps the "least bad" guys, but not good. They overthrew and helped overthrow a multitude of democratically elected and popular governments because they didn't suit the interests of the USA (which extends to not just the US govt, but also corporations, especially fruit companies).
Manifest dynasty and American Imperialism never died out at the end of the 19th century.
There is a reason why articles like this [0], this [1], and this [2] exist.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_United_S...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authoritarian_regimes_...
No, because they didn't suit the interests of halting the worldwide advance of totalitarian Communism.
Great powers throw their weight around. What's creditable in the US case is that they threw their weight around in part to promote liberty and democracy across the world. Not every action can be taken as beneficent in isolation, but in bulk the US has been massively beneficent to the world.
Oh, come on. They, at times, overthrew democratically elected heads of state like Allende in favor of military dictatorships that went on to torture tens of thousands.
That's quite good.
I'm not going to defend any specific action especially when taken in isolation but in the large US global hegemony has been massively beneficient.
But other than those specific local actions, taken in isolation, it's all been massively good and massively beneficial.
Like throwing people in the sea, torturing civians by thousands, bombing presidential palace. The world was becoming a safer place, even on the wrong side of Iron Curtain, but this Chile thing was really a step backward. The guy was caught in UK and held behind bars for the rest of his life for a reason.
Nope, I don't understand. What's the use of liberty and democracy when you end up worse than commies?
Not everything the USA has done has been selfless and not everything has worked out for the best, maybe not even the majority! But I must challenge the original assertion: when you take into account both capacity and intent, America was by far the most beneficient power of the 20th Century.
When comparing governments, one can't use a vacuum. It's not A vs. hypothetical B.
For example, fighting WW2 "completely ethically" (such as waiting for absolute precision bombing, absolutely zero civilian casualties, etc.) would have lost the war.
Yet, I'm happy that we didn't. Because the alternative would have been much worse.
We all know human right situation in Saudi Arabia , but who supports them? United States fucking government.
Give me fucking break dude. I am not that stupid to believe USA government is "good".they are as bad as other players. The only difference here is because of situation of domestic freedom they can not jail and tourture people as regular as their opponents do.
Fuck them.
Me and people like me as new generation of Iranian people which does not gives fuck about Islam(generally the youth in Iran are secular, atheist. Even the religious ones are open minded-exlude a very small fraction) or other stupid traditions,yet I have to pay the price just because some fucking stupid politicians thought we should stop Mosadegh. What they are doing now? They literally cut medical export to Iran , for what? Because Iran was going to build nuclear weapon with medical stuff? It is fucking lie.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état
Please educate yourselves before wasting other people's time. Differences of opinion is wonderful, but not knowing basics and yet answering , is beyond ignorance.
By all means, join your fellow MEers by blaming the west, blaming everyone except for yourself for your own fate.
Where did that come from? You are proving my point. You don't have any idea what you are talking about.
At least you can open the link I gave, before trying to write some made up answer.
Because how much I think , I cannot understand rational behind your logic, there.
You and people like you destroyed a countries fate.Installed a brutal dictator who killed people like lollipop. Now you are trying bring imaginary number out of your magical hat (I guess you can pull rabbit out of it too) claiming no government cannot last longer than 5 if it haven't public support? Pure nonsense. Give me money to show you how it can.Close the information flow, throw to jail elite class, design good propaganda machine, try to isolate people from outside world. Then I can rule as long as you want.
First of all where did you get those numbers? Have you done study? ( I know the answer , I give you the answer , no, those number is pure nonsense coming from your imaginary world) Have you been in middle East? Because there is a lot of regimes there which last more than maybe 20 years with killing and suppressing their own people.
You clearly don't know how politics works. Did most German agree with Hitler? Of course not. Most of them were just ordinary people forced to work for government, otherwise they would have been killed or tortured. Did most American agreed to Vietnam war? Iraq war? Or did they agreed with Prism?
It is simple fact, middle class (most of people) don't care about politics as long as they have minimum standard of living. You can get them to do everything if you leverage their income and security.They would believe to everything as long as you give them food and place.
You are ignoring mine. Never taking responsibility means things will never get better in Iran. It's the conservatives that blame the US so they can keep control, it's the reformists that realize it's Iranians that will make change, and that can't happen until their admit they are in charge of their own fate.
> Then I can rule as long as you want.
Wrong. North Korea is the longest standing "authoritarian" state, and they are barely surviving. Their days are numbered.
> Have you been in middle East?
I live in the ME, and the refusal of anyone to look at themselves in the mirror when discussing the very real problems in their society is universal. Everything is a conspiracy, nothing is their fault.
You aren't wrong in saying the west has been a negative influence in the region for peace and stability, but they are not in control anymore. Iran is a mess b/c of the fundamentalism at the core of Iranian society.
and how does embracing this help Iranians? It only serves to excuse why things never get better, and offers no solution
The problem is on the beltway behind closed doors all these types will admit "it's just machivellian realpolitik, and thats how the world works, so yeah were going to destabalize an entire region just to maintain a foothold in order to control resources so when the resource wars come were are set up to squeeze china and russia" but then these people go into public and spout all this bullshit about democracy and the stenographer "news" media just picks that line and runs with it with nary a critical thought for fear of revoked access.
Personally I think my country should be leading by example, not by force. I'm not religious anymore but I'm reminded of a biblical passage that says something to the effect of: "Before you remove the splinter from your brothers eye, remove the plank from yours."
Now are you ready for the conspiratorial angle?
I find Webster Tarpleys assertion that the British oligarchy conducts war by proxy (as learned and transplanted from the Venetians), usually by aligning with the second most powerful enemy in order to destroy the most powerful enemy, highly convincing.
In this case, I trace most of our foreign entanglements to the OSS and CIA, proxies for wall street, proxies for London City.
So my "conspiracy theory" (the terse version) goes like this:
The monarchy and oligarchy never forgave America for the revolution, and their solution is global government that pretends to be democratic but is really just a return to neo-feudalism. Through their infiltration of the state department from the early 1900s and their control of the darker three letters from the top down, I think America is being setup as the fall guy in the wars of aggression so that they can essentially say to us once they drop the dirt: "Look, America is a young country, it had its chance at it's constitutional democratic republic, but it's obviously not working out, so join our global government. (and if t you refuse we will just keep entangling you in disastrous policy and eventually just neuremberg you.)"
I think you me "in" the Beltway. The Beltway is the actual highway that encircles Washington, D.C.