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Comment by zeveb | Hacker News Reader

I think $200K/person is fine, but I do quibble with this:

> They are in Silicon Valley and have to compete with everyone else in Silicon Valley

Why? Why compete for talent in Silicon Valley when there are people all over the country who'd love to work on something like this? I can get why they might prefer not to do remote teams (it's a challenge), but there are cities like Seattle, Boston, Denver, Dallas, Kansas City, Houston — all of which have folks quite capable of building this.

In fact, for some folks not being located in SV is a huge plus!

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You people are hilarious.

Hey, YC, I've got a great idea for a startup in the incredibly hot cert/encryption space. The team is world class and in place. The product is shipping and customers are doubling every 6 months. $8 million at $40 million please.

Y'all idolize the bloodsuckers in Teslas that run this site, and give Josh and team grief. Jeez.

I somehow can't imagine 'dang owns a Tesla. Seems a like a Boosted Board guy to me. Also, not a bloodsucker.

I'm not giving Let's Encrypt grief — I think the wages they are paying sound decent. I was quibbling with the person I was replying to.

You are taking this way to harsh, I don't think he is giving them grief.

As covered elsewhere, most of the team is remote. But they still get SV salaries because great people get those salaries no matter where they are.

It doesn't work that way for all the remote jobs and contracts I've worked.

Maybe you aren't a great engineer?

That's pretty insulting to suggest in any case and borders on a reprehensible attitude to take personally against someone.

I think what jlukanta is saying is that the greatest people get the salaries they demand regardless of location. If you're insulted by the suggestion that you might not be in that top category, maybe you're letting your ego respond instead of thinking about it rationally.

The idea that not being "great" is insulting is more toxic than assuming someone isn't great. Lots of hero worship in this industry that fucks with people's egos - your statement being a prime example.

He directly insulted me, clarify how in your thinking, this has anything to do with hero worship? Stating your views without falling back on the needless application of profanity is something I'd appreciate.

I'm pretty his/her intention was not to insult you. Since you won't even consider the possibility that you're not a great engineer, perhaps you're just bad at finding decent jobs and contracts? Or you're bad at negotiating pay? I'm honestly a little confused because my impression is that contractors and consultants make more money than full-time employees.

If you understand great as considerably better than average, then you probably aren't great. I'm not. Almost no one is, although almost everyone thinks they beat the curve.

If you understand great to mean merely competent, then I think you're abusing the meaning of "great".

I agree that it was a kinda shitty thing to say.

You offered yourself as the example. You don't have a lot of room for complaint when people look at the example you provided.

If it helps you unbunch your undies on this topic, consider that "great" in the original meaning was something like "world class". There's no shame in not being one of the top people in the world.

I did not mean that as an insult. I apologize if it came across that way. Others have made a better explanation of what I was trying to convey.

Or a great engineer that is not a US resident.

More likely just not a great negotiator.

Counterpoint: It did for me.

that is ridiculous, do you have evidence to back that statement up?

If you consider anecdotal evidence then I have received, with no negotiation, similar (statistically identical) offers in low cost of living areas and high cost of living areas.

I'd love to know where. Not trying to be snarky.

I work in a pretty small niche that's concentrated in high cost of living areas so I would prefer not to get too specific. One example was a company in the same country as Omaha with similar cost of living.

A different company was in a different country than Omaha and the naive cost of living was higher, but the cost of living, after adjusting for taxes, was actually very similar.

I hope that gives enough information. I really enjoy living in high cost of living areas so that's where I ended up, but I did have the choice to live somewhere cheaper.

Country, or county?

Country.

lol not ridiculous at all

Glad to hear it! That was my first thought on glancing over the figures: 'hmm, I bet they're located in Silicon Valley, they could save money by moving somewhere cheaper'. But if the money is actually going to hiring the best people instead of into the pockets of San Francisco landlords, fair play to them.

"Silicon Valley" is the red herring then. World class people get world class compensation because they are damn good.

I propose that not so good techies may get more in SV but paid averagely elsewhere?

Regular people get world class compensation (which this is not) because they ask for it.

I'm guessing part of the negative reaction you're getting is because great people don't just "get SV salaries" no matter what. To get an SV salary, you need to find employment at a company able and willing to pay an SV salary. Being a great engineer does help a lot, but you need to chase the salary, it won't just fall into your lap.

It's much harder if you want to be remote, and very hard if you want to live in a country where no company pays SV salaries.

Yea, those SV salaries are what a lot of CEOs make over here in Southern Europe. Of course, this might say more about Southern Europe, but for most of the world, when we see 200K a year paychecks, its hard to imagine that its for an engineer (especially for a programmer or sysadmin).

I'm a 3 years software engineer in France and I'm getting 29k€ (tax excluded) per year. With current exchange rate that makes SV guys getting paid 10 times more than me. Where's the onion ?

This just means France has a weak software industry.

> I'm getting 29k€ (tax excluded) per year.

Ask your employer first how much it costs to pay you that. It's probably much more than you think. The LE people get paid <=3x as much as you and that's easily justified with SV salaries in general and their expertise.

Lets be generous and say the employer pays 45k, its still way over 5x more.

Hi fellow French engineer. You are paid 29k€, which already covers for your health insurance, retirement plans, unemployment insurance, education, and so on. It is often said that in France, the employer pays 2x what he pays you (look up "salaire super-brut"). In America, you often have to cover your ass by yourself --and from what I understand, you absolutely don't want to get cancer or any serious illness there, no matter your health insurance. Also, living in these areas is fucking expensive -- a friend in NY made $5k a month during his internship, but had to pay $2k just for his apartment. The same holds in SV, I'd say.

However, I don't know your job but 29k€ seems a bit at the lower end of the scale to me, at least for IT. Have you looked at websites like glassdoor.fr what's the mean salary for your position? From what I know the first years are highly dependent on your diploma, but after a few years it shouldn't be effective anymore.

Edit: and as @chrischen says, IT engineers are not much valued in France. I'm pretty sure you've heard about the expression "pisseur de code" (literally, someone who pees code). I'm also pretty sure you've met "entrepreneurs" who had a "great idea" and who "only need" an intern to implement it --but surely they got the idea, the IT guy is just an operating man so he shouldn't get credit, even though is idea is 100% about IT services (and, probably, shitty).

> tax excluded

Why?

If the employees lived in Silicon Valley they would probably demand more than 200k/year for the same skill.

Also there are other countries than the US

There are not insignificant complexities involved in hiring people multinationally.

Is there a business op in this? Just a simple umbrella company in the US that supplies talent from around the world?

You would think people working for a SV company in places with a much lower cost of living would take a much lower salary, but you would be wrong. It is certainly my experience in hiring.

As it should. Nobody is going to get a discount on great engineers because everyone wants great engineers, and there are a hell of a lot fewer great engineers than job openings for them.

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