A Theory of Creepiness
aeon.co
aeon.co
https://www.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=creepy https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=creepy&year_st...
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=scary&year_sta...
The term has simply become a short-hand way of describing something that brings unease. The problem with the term is that people aren't actually describing what characteristics are bringing that sense of unease, thus someone who's a little awkward gets lumped in with far worse characters. So it can be used indiscriminately but it's an easy way to describe something that's difficult to define, hence its ongoing popularity.
The internet meme of "creepypasta," probably. See /r/nosleep for the sanitized version. This is the meme cluster that yielded Slenderman, BEKs, and the SCP project.
On /r/nosleep, I think this plays out just as somewhat more tame stories becoming popular. People are going to downvote stories that actually make them uncomfortable. The demographic on reddit is older and so a lot of the stories are family-centric which I think takes away from the horror (there aren't many Lovecraft stories where his adorable 3 year old is actually something else, because Lovecraft wouldn't want to write about an adorable 3 year old in the first place).
To see this in the large, you can check out the top post on /r/nosleep of all time, which is this ama-style bag of short anecdotes told from the point of view of a search and rescue ranger: https://www.reddit.com/r/nosleep/comments/3iex1h/im_a_search...
It's very much in the style of a usual reddit post, making it accessible to redditors. It has many short, shallow anecdotes, which is good for upvotes because if someone likes at least one, they'll upvote it, but it's bad for the horror, because rather than something longer-form that expands on a single theme, you get these little snippets that aren't very immersive. It's creepy, but not horrific.
You'll find they peaked in 2014, and it took them until 2010 to become popular.
I guess I would qualify that I think this meme is probably what caused the 2007 spike. Later growth in the creepy space is probably more due to online dating becoming popularized; this would allow creeps to be creepy with virtually no possibility of retribution.
Being afraid of a creepy guy who won't leave you alone is very different than being creeped out by a clown or an abandoned building.
Or, more crudely: "wtf" - "oh, it's harmless".
What's interesting to me is that under such a definition there's a clear notion of intentionality. Something can only be creepy when it's behavior is directed towards an object. While it might be tempting to point towards places that are creepy (e.g. abandoned hospital), I would suggest that these are eerie rather than creepy.
Did Steve Buscemi help define creepiness for the polled group, or did he hit a genetic jackpot of pre-existing ideas of creepiness? (Or both?)
"Dibs" -> "Meins". "I call dibs on the last cookie" isn't one word either, so of course you wouldn't use one word in German either. However if you put it like that, you'd just say "Das ist meiner". But that'd be rude, which is why you're more likely to hear "Möchte noch jemand den Keks?" ("Does anybody want this remaining cookie?"). This isn't a translation problem, it's a culture problem.
"Creepy" -> "Gruselig". A person can be "gruselig". It means exactly the same thing. Yes, there are additional meanings to the German word that don't match the English word and there are additional meanings to the English word that don't match the German word but that's how language works. Good luck finding a single word pair in both languages that matches exactly -- it happens, but it's the exception, not the rule.
"Backwash". That seems oddly specific. I guess "Sabber" ("drool") would be the German word used in the described scenario but again her example seems fairly rude. If you don't want to share someone's drink, you don't tell them it's because you don't want their spit in your mouth (because that would imply there's something disgusting about how they drink or that they're somehow unhygienic).
"Awkward". Again, this is a cultural thing. There is not one German word for each meaning because the different meanings are lumped together in English but not in German. A social faux pas is "peinlich" (my favourite slang equivalent of the valley girl steoretype "Awkward!" is "Schwierig!", which in this sense doesn't translate well either -- it literally means "difficult").
"Cooties". Again, culture. There is no German word because this isn't a thing in German.
"Attitude" -> "Einstellung". "Having an attitude" is not one word, in fact it strongly suggests an omission (because on face value the sentence is trivially true about most people). "Don't give me an attitude" is not one word either and I'm pretty sure "Stell dich nicht so an" (or even "Reiss dich zusammen") is a reasonable equivalent -- an armchair psychologist might observe something about the German version being more about the person demonstrating the behaviour and the English version more about the person inconvenienced by the behaviour but armchair psychology is rarely meaningful.
"Jaywalker" -> "Rotgänger". Yeah, there's not really a verb for it in German but again this seems awfully specific.
From her companion video on German words:
"Schunkeln". This is kinda like arguing there's no English word for "Umlaut". Why should English have more accurate words for this if it isn't a thing in the English-speaking world? Also, how familiar you are with this term as a German speaker strongly depends on where in Germany you live, though I'd wager few Germans don't know it at all. She's in Munich and Schunkeln suits itself to Oktoberfest because of the beer benches, so she'll probably be exposed to it a lot more than the average German.
"Kummerspeck". This is fairly specific and only works because "Speck" is already a slang word for (belly) fat (not even limited to overweight people). I'd wager it's actually originally a play on words: "Babyspeck" is "baby fat" which toddlers typically lose as they grow up, so "grief fat" would be something you typically lose as you stop grieving). I don't see any obvious reason "grief fat" isn't a word in English.
"Schnapsidee" -> "brain fart". Yes, it's not a direct translation, but the literal meaning is almost never intended for "Schnapsidee" either. It's just a "stupid idea". And of course "brain fart" can be more general whereas "Schnapsidee" usually refers to a specific plan that had easily predictable flaws.
"Treppenwitz" -> "fridge logic" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic). I don't even know what this word specifically is supposed to be. I guess this is a Bavarian thing? I've never come across this word in 30 years. Yes, the TV Tropes term is not an exact match but it is the exact same idea.
"Verschlimmbessern". Yes, this one is originally a pun ("verschlimmern" + "verbessern"). Puns don't translate well. This is probably a genuine example but the concept exists in both languages -- I'm pretty sure there's already some obscure slang word for this I'm not aware of (other than "fixing" -- with the scare quotes).
Bonus: "Gemütlichkeit" -> "Comfy"/"Cozy". Yes, the German word can also be applied to people in the sense of "relaxed". I think the kids these days use "chill" in pretty much the same way (i.e. things and people can be "chill")?
As you can see, some of these don't have exact matches but a claim like "Germans have no word for Creepy so creepiness doesn't exist for Germans" is incredibly daft.
And "unheimlich" is in many contexts further from "scary" than from "creepy", with "scary" more describing something as outright fear-inducing than the other two.
Awkward ~= Komisch/Unbeholfen
And the concepts totally do translate to German. A lot of people would describe a "creepy guy" as "gruselig" in German. Actually we've imported the word "Freak" to describe these people.
As an aside: there was a German copy of the "Beauty and the Geek" show that was far more dehumanising and called "Das Model und der Freak" where the entire concept was that "pretty" c-list celebrity women would give a "nerdy loser" a makeover to turn him into a generic alpha male womanisers.
The entire concept was "here's this loser weirdo no girl would ever date, let's make him conventionally attractive and exterminate his pre-existing personality in its entirety". The sole point of the show was ridiculing these "weirdos" and their strange hobbies -- of course the exploitable traits were exaggerated through bad scripting and heavy editing.
A pet peeve of mine is that until recently the words "geek" and "nerd" have often been replaced by "Freak" as movies are translated to German, drastically skewing the intended meaning ("Freak" is almost always an insult). Recently "Geek" and "Nerd" seem to have entered the German language (especially the former, mostly via gaming and social media) so hopefully that's coming to an end.
> Awkward ~= Komisch/Unbeholfen
Those translations don't really contain that additional negativity of "Creepy/Awkward". It is hard really pinpoint it though.
> there was a German copy of the "Beauty and the Geek" show that was far more dehumanising and called "Das Model und der Freak" where the entire concept was that "pretty" c-list celebrity women would give a "nerdy loser" a makeover to turn him into a generic alpha male womanisers.
But that was so much more over the top. Those guys were more like "eklig" (disgusting).
The fact that "creepy" is used in German language sometimes points towards that the terms are not exactly identical, but it's a tiny difference and in no way big enough to say that the concept doesn't exist. It's just a shorthand for something that otherwise might require a modifier or explanation, + using English is cool.
1) The theory of mirror neurons. This theory states that if you are nervous, the other person will pick up on it subconsciously. As the article states, false confidence, even if you try your best to hide it, will come across as a barely disguised nervousness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
One of the things that I've observed while watching some pick-up artists practice is that those who eventually become "successful" are basically asking nothing of those who approach. They don't fear rejection. In fact, they can be quite entertaining and good listeners. However, for most of these individuals, they probably had to go through a lot of rejections to get to the point where they didn't honestly care what the reaction was.
2) The hover zone/kill zone
Commonly used in pick-up artist terminology. This is easily described as wanting to talk to a specific individual, even approaching within several feet, yet not doing it. I know we've all done this, at some point, at a bar or even at a friend's party. You know the person knows that you are interested in them.
3) Reciprocity
In one of Pedro Almodovar's movies, in the director's commentary on the DVD, there is a man in a woman's apartment who is looking through his host's stuff. The director makes a statement along the lines that "liking without reciprocity" makes it stalking (or worse).
In the very rare times, where a woman who has explicitly hit on me, asking lots of questions, showing interest that is out of norm with the pace of conversation (e.g. we just met), I can attest that it feels creepy as in (What have I done to make you so interested?). In more common circumstances, I recall people who are seemingly interested in you but quickly steer the conversation to something like network marketing.
Given these factors, what can be done to not come across as creepy?
First, don't hover. Talk to someone right away, even if it just a quick introduction.
Second, being quiet can actively work against you in most social situations. Especially when you are meeting new people. To this day, I can be enjoying a party by meeting new people in a group and listening to their stories and (usually) extroverts will ask if "are you having a good time?". Even if I am, it doesn't outwardly show, at least in the manner they'd expect.
Third, the answer may lie in being mindful of reciprocity. For example, talking to a cute individual, what is it about him/her/they that you find interesting (that is not related to something she cannot easily change, like her looks).
When I've talked to my good looking friend girls, they basically say they have to ignore all the attention/cat calls when they walk down the street.
Fourth, to escape the friend zone, you have to make it explicitly clear that you are interested in someone romantically and tell them why. Asking someone out to coffee to talk about their job v. asking someone out to a picnic because you like them.
One last side note - if you walk into a party with a couple good looking friends (male or female), people will automatically ascribe a higher status to you, whether you care to agree with the theory and practice of social proof or not.
I think it boils down to unknown, potentially threatening behavior. The big eyed, tail wagging mix of a dog and a mouse is not so creepy. Walking on to cobblestones and they feel like they are floating scares us. A house painted in perfect white, all lights turned on, but without furniture or any people is creepy.
The funeral director and taxidermist is creepy, because he isn't creeped out by death himself.
edit: reading the other comments: this is about scary creepy, as in "freaks me out", not creepy as in "ugh, leave me alone you perv". Though there are overlaps of course.
https://github.com/johngtait/mixie-novel/blob/development/fr...
Of course, an openly-readable Internet forum is a risky place to open yourself up emotionally.
Likewise, when going from reading things like http://tinyurl.com/schrodingers-rapist, or various blogs written by and for those on the receiving end of stalking and street harassment, it is very easy to feel a lot of anxiety about the possibility of creeping someone out. But humans are strange and varied people who have all sorts of backgrounds and perceptions. And you have to work to accept this. You still must avoid doing things that will cause a reasonable predictive model of people to feel fear: Keep a situationally-reasonable distance from people. Don't shout things at people on the street. Don't present sexual/romantic intent to someone with a high cost to removing themselves from the situation. There are ways you can trade time/money or your preferences for other's comfort if you choose: learn to choose and wear nicer clothing. Speak in a slightly higher pitch. Avoid facial hair or tattoos. Have a friend smell-check you if your nose is impaired. But ultimately, people percieve things in different ways and some might perceive you as a threat. And you have to work to accept this.
[1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/09/08/this-cyclist-wa... [2] https://www.amazon.com/Fit-System-RM011-Clip-Mirror/dp/B001A...
It's the most confident statement in the article, but without supplying a reference. Can this be validated?
Take a horror movie. If said collector is a recluse who's history nobody knows about, they're described as scary. If they're out and about, visiting neighbors, trying to relate and engage with people, they are much more likely to be described as creepy.
As such, bringing it back to everyday behavior, I think the critical aspect that determines whether something is creepy or not is whether there is a mismatch between what the person is explicitly informing they want to do (be a friendly neighbor), and whether the person on the receiving end suspects there are ulterior motives (they want to collect hair).
>It’s not “creepy” if he’s hot. I freely admit it. When a very attractive stranger approaches me and tells me I’m beautiful, it brightens my day. When a guy who is short, fat or balding does it, it makes my skin crawl no matter how tactful he is about it. I just want him to go away. I’m not alone in feeling this way. Most women feel the same, but hide the true extent of it when the guys are around.
If the essay called an ethnic or religious group animals, would you still link to it and characterize it as "interesting" and "provocative?"
Just because you feel bad about something it doesn't mean it's false.
Being provocative at least requires starting with an argument that can be defended.
Looks are important to many women just as they are important to many men. There's nothing to be ashamed of and there is no point in denying human sexuality.
I am astonished that any educated person could lend any support whatsoever to an article that uses terms like "genetic superiors." The premise is that only beautiful people are human beings.
Specifically, an ugly solicitor elicits a reaction comparable to a zombie in some women. This is generally a subconscious reaction belying sexual selection. Extreme but it happens. Less extreme version is tied to disgust feeling.
The root is probably the same: detecting contagious people and animals.
Is there an underlying assumption 'women are less visual'? It's seems like a bit of a straw man because no one can and should generalize.
The next bits about 'knowing your place' puts the author in the enlightening company of a cave man teling women to 'know their place'. I wonder how many will be lining up to defend that.
Self proclaiming yourself as 'good looking' is problematic in itself because this is purely subjective beyond a 1% that everyone widely agree on. To then use this self created pedestal to dismiss and reduce others suggests a unnatural degree of narcissism and likely necessitates a large leap from reality.
There is, at least in American culture. It is wrong of course.
"Wording aside" is exactly my point. Women might agree with some of the ideas there, but I haven't heard any express them in that way. I have seen men express them in that way.
I suppose if you were willing to sleep with any "attractive" person that approached you there'd be no fear of rape, and so no threat or resulting "creepiness." Less shallow people, then, would either find "attractive" people more creepy and/or "unattractive" people less creepy.
In hindsight it's amazing how much young people take this shit personally. Like guy getting angry to a woman for her being fat. Guy getting angry because some random woman is not attracted to him. Gal getting visually disgusted because some guy does not look appropriately attractive. Etc. Etc.
Usually people get over it by their mid twenties. Some don't. Mixing fancy words to it like "feminism" sure does not help.
Tangents to marginally related things can be interesting, but the fact that an unrelated essay also uses the word 'creepy' isn't sufficient reason to turn an HN discussion into a flamewar. If the quote had been from the OP it would have been one thing, but BYOE (bringing your own explosives) is not cool.
This is a personal attack and is not OK on Hacker News.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12536861 and marked it off-topic.
> [–][deleted] 3796 points 2 years ago*x2
Lots of Indian dudes are great guys. Most, even. Smart, funny, sociable, kind, handsome, eyes to kill for, the works.
But just as with every group, some aren't. Some are creeps. Usually creeps have no idea that they're creeps, don't understand why they're creeps, and get mad when people call them creeps. So why are Indian dudes so often creeps? Well, for the same reasons any guy is a creep, with a few cultural factors thrown in. I'll try to explain why in a way that encompasses creepdom as a whole, and which I think might be comprehensible to creeps. Now, if I could establish an informal Creepiness Quotient to describe the feeling someone gives you in the first few seconds they're hitting on you, I would do it as follows.
Creepiness = ( (Awkwardness x Forwardness) / (Attractiveness) ) ^ Persistence
Now, let's look at the factors here, with "you" being a nonspecific potential creep who is hitting on "me," a nonspecific person of sexual interest:
Awkwardness is the extent to which you demonstrate your inability to operate effectively in my chosen social environment. A person who cannot initiate or maintain a comfortable conversation with me is an unappealing choice of partner. Immigrants often score highly on Awkwardness, which is natural--they're working in an unfamiliar social environment. I think that's unfortunate, because usually it's not at all their fault.
Forwardness is the extent to which you convey that your goal is purely to use me as a sex-thing. If I think you like me because I'm interesting, this is noncreepy and good. If I think you like me because my part fits your part, that is creepy and bad. Men from some cultures tend to be more forward than men from others, depending on the appropriate gender roles in their societies. In my own personal experience, Indians are high on the Forwardness list. I'm not remotely qualified to offer a guess as to why, beyond "lol culture" which is not explanatory of anything.
Attractiveness is a saving grace! Maybe you're hot, maybe you've got a great voice, maybe you've got nice arms, maybe you told a great joke, maybe I like your clothes, maybe you belong to the same subculture I do. Maybe you aren't an obese scuzzlord with halitosis who smells like BO and salmonella. Rules #1 and #2 aren't all there is, but they definitely help. I don't think your ethnicity makes you more or less likely to be attractive as a rule, though some individual people have some degree of preference.
Persistence is bad news. Persistence is when you don't take "no" for an answer. Persistence is when you apply pressure, is when you get aggressive or defensive, and is when you demand explanations for why I won't date you. At high levels, persistence is when you start to give off rape vibes. Persistence is what you get when someone believes they are entitled to sex with me or entitled to a relationship with me, and my opinion on the matter is an inconvenience. Persistence is a creepiness multiplier. An awkward, unattractive dude who says "ey, you got nice tits, I got a nice dick, so, wanna fuck" then leaves when I say no? He's creepy, yes. A dude who is otherwise normal but who won't leave me alone? Way creepier. In my experience, this is where so many Indian guys lose it: the entitlement/persistence factor. Begin with traditional gender roles, teach them to a child of a rich businessman in a society with sharply defined social classes, who has always gotten everything he wants, and who is somewhat inclined to see people 'below' him as less deserving of consideration. Then turn that child into a STEMlord engineering student who has had minimal successful contact with actual human beings. That's a recipe for a guy who thinks he deserves women but doesn't have any idea about how to 'get' them. So he gets persistent, because hey, that's how you succeed at anything, right, you just find what you want and take it? And now he's creepy as fuck.
This whole thing is of course not limited to Indian dudes. Any guy can be a creeper, for similar reasons as above. But if you're asking why so many Indian students in Western universities are creepers, well, that's why: unfamiliarity with their new nation's social norms and gender roles (Awkwardness and Forwardness) combined with a disturbing sense of entitlement and an inability to handle disappointment (Persistence) means high creepiness. EDIT: Women can be creeps too, of course. In the above, I assume the creep is a man, partially for ease of pronoun use, and partially as an reflection of the relatively higher incidence of male creeps.
- https://www.reddit.com/r/cringepics/comments/21gf9b/i_get_mo...