Comment by sytse | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sytse | Hacker News Reader

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I agree that putting projects under repositories looks counterintuitive. In BitBucket you have multiple repositories under one project https://confluence.atlassian.com/bitbucket/projects-79249795...

We at GitLab are trying to keep it simple by having only one repository, one wiki, one issue tracker, one CD pipeline, and one set of milestones per project. Projects always below to a group. We aggregate on the group level, for example issues https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/issues, merge requests https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/merge_requests and milestones https://docs.gitlab.com/ce/workflow/milestones.html#groups-a...

There are several things we're still considering to solve this problem better, comments are very welcome:

1. Multi project pipelines https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/17069

2. Group level issue boards https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ee/issues/928

3. Nested groups https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/2772

Meta-comment: As a founder and engineer, I used to give a lot of shit to Social Media as a growth channel.

GitLab staff are "on point" by commenting on anything relevant to their industry (code creation/management) where their target customers are (HN).

To other founders, this is what good marketing looks like.

Thanks Chris. It is a tricky balance not being too noisy (I understand the sentiment of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12502468 ) but I tried to add to the conversation by by sharing our thoughts about the project <=> repo dilemma.

A willingness to engage with the community as often and as effectively as you guys have is surely not commonplace.

Hope you can keep it up! :)

I thought HN frowned on metacomments, and here it goes, talking about GitLab again, in a Github topic...

I'm in no way affiliated with gitlab, but I do like the product.

But the facts are such:

1) GitLab is a YCombinator incubated company.

2) GitLab and GitHub are direct competitors

3) It's almost always relevant to the discussion, in this case; "How could it be done differently, how /has/ it been done differently"

In this case I think it's fair to bring up the direct comparison of github and gitlab. The only thing I would say could improve the situation was having github representation on here too.

I enjoy threads like these; this is how healthy competition looks like. GitLab peoples' comments are relevant, and their discuss technical issues and merits of their solution, instead of comparing to GitHub ("we're better than the competitor!").

If this is how all marketing would always look like, I wouldn't hate it like I now do.

If your product targets developers, commenting on HN seems like a pretty high value channel compared to something like facebook.

YMMV, but I find sytse so hugely overbearing that I actively don't want to use GitLab because I don't want to encourage what I see as tacky, bad behavior. He and other GitLab staff can do as they like, but I'm not rewarding it.

I don't have a strong opinion but my gut feeling is that the GitLab staff is always asking HN what to do, which kind of makes me question the integrity of the company's own ability to decide.

Of course it fits with the model of an open source company, but it still makes me skeptical intuitively. (I say this less as a criticism and more as feedback on how one random HN user perceives their presence.)

Thats fair comment, but how do you define the middle ground between sitting in an ivory tower and wondering what the next feature should be, between asking people who actually use your product in ways you wouldn't expect?

I release computer games, which are developed largely in secret and when they hit the market after 4-7 years people find all kinds of warts and issues that we never even thought of.

GitLab seems to be of the idea, "ask people what they need, make small incremental movements into making that happen and release those increments often so that people don't get jarred by changes"

I can support that, and I don't think it bears negatively on their integrity.

I'm not sure. Maybe I would try to integrate the product suggestions into the product more, along with just reaching out to users directly and generally conducting the product in a typical open source fashion.

What bugs me a bit is mostly the constant presence on the Hacker News forum, with this somewhat aimlessly customer-pleasing tone: "What can we do better? How can we improve your experience?" etc.

It seems like a premeditated PR/marketing strategy, which might be working well, but it's still off-putting to me.

Objectively, that's such an odd thing to be unsettled about.

Have we reached a point where all pleasing tones are considered marketing and PR? That we distrust people for acting earnestly?

It's in gitlabs best interests to be a superior product, right now they're an underdog, and their ubiquity on hackernews is not a coincidence, they're a YCombinator backed start-up.

Talking directly to people tends to focus the conversation too much without allowing outside perspective, you might want all of gitlab to be focused on CI, but I may think a casual CI integration would be more reasonable and likely a good solution is a middle ground- also, who do you ask? people rarely talk about their VCS unless it's relevant to discussion.

I fully admit that I'm a cynical and cranky bastard.

At least you're polite and well-spoken.

That's interesting, it's not how I read their interactions at all.

Asking the community for opinions is a great thing to do - you might get some good suggestions and the community then feel valued. That doesn't mean you need to do exactly what the community tells you, but taking it into account in the design process may help build something that the community actually wants to use.

Asking what to do doesn't mean doing what they are asked. Turning suggestions into software features requires a lot of skillful software design and marketing work. There's nothing wrong with deciding, among countless incompatible options, to evolve the product in ways that appears likely to increase revenue, while not seeking feedback would be an actual bad sign about GitLab's ability to decide (and improve).

> In BitBucket you have multiple repositories under one project

however, unless i'm missing something, a "project" in bitbucket is basically just a folder to group your repositories in. there's no real features associated with it. A github project is project management tools based on a repository.

If GitHub had called their feature something else, (for example, call it "the board") and nobody would be expecting it to be anything other than per-repo.

That's correct, right now projects in Bitbucket help to organise your repositories into projects. With the raise of microservices, it's quite common that a project or product is made up of many repositories.

In the future you will see us adding more capabilities to projects, such as permission management [1] or settings on a project level, which already exist in Bitbucket Server.

[1]https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/BitbucketServer/Usi...

It would be nice if there were a taxonomy of different organisational approaches so that we could have a common terminology to discuss the pros and cons of each.

E.g. I come at things from the intersection of (embedded) product line engineering and continuous integration, which leads me towards a different place than somebody coming at things from (e.g.) consulting or web services ... but it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion about the pros & cons of each approach without the language / terminology that we need.

Enough with the ads here.

"Gitlab CEO here"

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