Hacker News Reader

Comment by lisper | Hacker News Reader

The fundamental problem with NK is that it successfully sustains the fiction that the U.S. is going to attack "real soon now". That widespread (in NK) belief combined with nukes is a very dangerous combination. We can't do much about the nukes, but this humanitarian crisis provides an opportunity to move the needle on the Dangerous Fiction: make a public offer to provide humanitarian aid in exchange for a public acknowledgement that the aid is coming from the U.S. This acknowledgement would have to be broadcast on NK television so we can know that the NK people will see it.

Yes, it is unlikely that KJU would accept this. The goal here is not to actually extract the concession, but rather to sow seeds of doubt in the Dangerous Fiction in the minds of the NK elites by setting up a situation where the only reason that people are starving is KJU's refusal to acknowledge a simple truth: the U.S. is providing food.

View on HN

The US has sustained the fiction that terrorists are going to attack "real soon now" and people still accept it like some existential threat. Meanwhile we're onto the 15th year of toddlers killing parents with their own handguns outnumbering terrorists attacks. So I guess we can't really be surprised by their fears - it's the whole world against them and it sort of makes sense for them to dig in deeper.

> The US has sustained the fiction that terrorists are going to attack "real soon now" and people still accept it like some existential threat.

Touche. But at least in the U.S. dissenting from this point of view doesn't get you and your family thrown in a labor camp.

We don't need to get NK to love us. We just need to sow enough doubt in the Dangerous Fiction that launching a nuclear first strike is no longer seen within NK as a desirable (or even tenable) option.

Isn't it a little insensitive to say that imply terrorist attacks on US soil are fiction when when 49 people got killed in an attack in June? I'll agree that public fear, and public official rhetoric is out of proportion to say, car accidents, but it's an apples to oranges comparison.

There's reality and there's sensitivity.

Sensitivity would be an awareness of the tragedy the Florida nightclub attacks were to the vicitms, their families, and friends.

Reality would be recognising that that event in no way, shape, or form presented the least existential threat to the US itself, and that the ties of the madman involved to organised international terrorist groups are tenuous at best. And that armed toddlers and children present a far larger clear and present danger to the United States.

I believe they tried something like that before by writing something like "from the US" on all the food. They just told the people that the US gave them the food because they were scared of North Korea and the food was some sort of tribute.

Yes, I know. That is why I would ask for a public announcement on NK TV with wording to be mutually agreed upon in advance, to avoid exactly that problem.

Then NK just intentionally impedes food delivery while cheerfully playing the required TV message. US still looks bad. We just can't go through a hostile 3rd party.

I don't understand. Why would NK impeding the deliveries make the US look bad?

Because the US lied about giving them food, why else would the food not be there?

NK doesn't have to tell their citizen they are purposely impeding the food deliveries to make the US look bad. They can lie and say it's typical American incompetence.

That sort of stuff has been proposed in the past, and the North Koreans always balk. The leadership of the country knows it's not going to survive a change in government and is willing to let millions starve if it's necessary to stay in power.

Giving Nietzsche's bio-metaphysical claim of a "will to power" a bit more empirical ground (in the order of the millions starving) to stand on.

Here's a crazy idea: consider the possibility that the situation in Korea is inscrutable and do nothing, say nothing, and focus on problems within the four corners of America. Sometimes when a crazy person singles you out on the street, your best defense is to ignore them.

What if that person has a nuclear weapon? Still best to ignore them?

Yes. What else will you do--forcibly disarm them? The genie is out of the bottle. I say this as someone who lives within range of those nukes.

ok.. so north korea says no. now what?

do you believe that if people are starving, north koreans will overthrow their government? if so, why do you believe that?

In 94-98, upwards of 3.5m people starved to death (almost 20% of their population at the time). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't play out exactly the same way this time. what's changed?

Edit: also remember, during this time, the elites were fed. It was ordinary people who starved. There was no rebellion.

I this is the root of the problem. NK elites are perfectly willing to let their people starve to death. Any help from the outside will be completely on their terms.

> NK elites are perfectly willing to let their people starve to death.

If that were true they wouldn't be asking for help in the first place.

The starving people are a useful tool for extracting supplies from more developed countries; much if not all of this food will be siphoned off to bribe the elites. Famines are also a useful tool to help the tyrant punish areas which are not 'compliant'.

> ok.. so north korea says no. now what?

Wait a week. Then fold, saying, "OK NK, you called our bluff." (But of course, you can't announce that part of the plan up front.)

> do you believe that if people are starving, north koreans will overthrow their government?

No. As you point out, that experiment has already been done, with negative results. The goal here is not to overthrow the government, the goal is to sow the seeds of doubt in the Dangerous Fiction.

> what's changed?

The goal: to sow the seeds of doubt in the Dangerous Fiction.

> Wait a week. Then fold, saying, "OK NK, you called our bluff."

ok, that's a lot more realistic.

Why do you believe that north koreans would even know about this fairly amoral thing you are proposing?

Because there are members of the NK elite who do have access to information from the outside world. (There are actually some NK civilians who have this access too, but they are not the target audience here. Anyone brave enough to take that risk is already deconverted.)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com