My feeling is that Iran is a far better natural ally of the United States than Saudi Arabia. The average Iranian is probably far more amenable to western liberal values than the average person from Saudi Arabia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...
From the Wikipedia article you linked:
"Classified documents show that British intelligence officials played a pivotal role in initiating and planning the coup"
Yes, Britain precipitated the effort. The US, however, enabled its success.
Britain has been deeply involved in the Persia/Iran for hundreds of years including multiple occupations and coups. In 1921 the British installed original Shah Pahlavi, father of the Shah Pahlavi deposed in the 1979 revolution. And before Pearl Harbor brought the US into WWII the British - in cooperation with the Soviet Union! - occupied Iran.
If Britian had not been weakened by WWII and terrible economic policy it is unlikely that they would have spent a year begging the US to assist them in Iran. Until this time the US had little involvement in the region.
We luckily live in a time (post 2013) when you can read the CIA's own fascinating history of the event:
"Well, the US took over from Britain in the Middle East and, in fact, much of the world, after the Second World War. In fact actually, replaced Britain and France. France was summarily expelled— they weren’t given the time of day. Britain however, was given a role. It was given the role of “junior partner”, as the British foreign office rather ruefully described it, accurately. Britain was going to be our lieutenant— the fashionable word is “partner”— as they were described by a senior adviser in the Kennedy administration. That’s reasonably accurate— you’re seeing an example of it right now. The lieutenant is doing its job— the attack-dog, maybe."
https://chomsky.info/19990404/
"U.S. Middle East Policy", Noam Chomsky (1999).
Your CIA reference supports my and others' in this thread essential claim: "Recently, the CIA has declassified a number of records relating to the 1953 coup, including a version of an internal history that specifically states the agency planned and helped implement the coup."
The matter of the British instigating the action isn't in question, and hasn't been questioned. The relative roles of the US and British -- applied, again, to the middle east as a whole, by the British foreign office itself, is. You have been profoundly insensitive to this distinction.
I do appreciate the CIA document reference.
You seem to think you're arguing with me over something. Unfortunately, half of what you're arguing is over things I didn't say or misreadings of things I did say. The other half is over points of agreement.
Both are tiresome.
I doubt this conversation will progress, so will leave this as my final comment.
Damnit, Kermit!
This propaganda story of the West needs to die. (They never forgave the Shah for being critical of them in the 70s and to this date their media lists this poor man as one of the "worst tyrants of 20th century". Same century that gave us Stalin, Hitler, Mao, PolPot, .... The man was a saint compared to most world leaders, then and now.)
No one installed a monarch in Iran. The late Shah of Iran, who very much cared for Iran, was indeed permitted to succeed his father, Reza Shah ("the great"), by the occupying Alied powers (who had invaded the neutral Iran). This 'transition' to nominal power 'permitted' by external powers that occupied the entirety of Iran is a fact of Iranian history. (In fact, before accepting CIA/NYTimes account of '53 and the Shah of Iran, you may want to read up on the history of Iran from 1850 to 1950.)
From that date, until the counter-coup of 1953 in which US and UK participated alongside quite a substantial subset of Iranian society, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi stayed well within the limits of Iranian constitution's limits on royal power. One noteworthy aspect of being the Shah of Iran under the constitutional regime was the ability to appoint and dismiss the Prime Minister.
Dr. Mossadegh, a member of the Majlis (people's assembly) was indeed put forward by that body as the Prime Minister and the Shah did formally appoint him. After the good Dr. managed to alienate most of his internal allies -- the Mullahs and the Communist Party of Iran -- he assumed dictatorial powers. He even ran an election with "99%" yes vote for his assuming such powers. That is the famous "election" the propaganda organs of the West keep mentioning.
The Shah dismissed the Dr. from his office. The Dr. refused to accept this, contrary to the constitution of Iran. The Shah feared for his life, and fled. And meanwhile back in Iran, elements of Iranian military, landed gentry, Mullahs, etc. who no longer supported the (dismissed) Prime Minister organized a counter coup. So, New York Times notwithstanding, little Kermit Roosevelt did not all by his lonesome and a suitcase full of dollar bills create a coup to "install" the legal, standing, Shah of Iran.
What happend to the Shah after '53, was that he had decided to push for stability in Iran and began to overstep the constitutional limits. It was during this period that Iran went from helpless victim of the insatiable greed of the British and ambitions of the Russians to a healthy state. It was only then that Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi accepted coronation.
And the apparently alarming development of Iran actually got to the point that Iran began to loom as a strategic threat to Western hegemony in the Persian Gulf, having taken over the security role of British in the Persian Gulf with America's blessing and material support; establishing OPEC as a power player; and having publicly announced in '73 that "in 1979" when the oil contracts forced on a bankrupt Iran in '53 reached their term, that Iran would no longer accede to the aggregious demands of the Western Oil Cartel (the famous "seven sisters"). Surprisingly enough, it was precisely in 1979 that "revolution" broke out in Iran and BBC Persian service kindly began announcing the Ayatollah's messages and demonstration schedule. (Fact.)
No one installed our King. Good and bad, warts and all, he was OUR King, our Shahanshah, and we Iranians accept full responsibility for the matter.
On March 30 and 31 (Farvardin 10, 11) a referendum was held over whether to replace the monarchy with an "Islamic Republic" – a term not defined on the ballot. Khomeini called for a massive turnout[193] and only the National Democratic Front, Fadayan, and several Kurdish parties opposed the vote.[193] It was announced that 98.2% had voted in favor.[193]
[1]: http://iranian.com/main/2010/jul/all-shahs-men-0.html
[2]: http://iranian.com/main/2010/aug/all-shahs-men-2.html
[3]: http://iranian.com/main/2010/aug/all-shahs-men-3.html
[4]: http://iranian.com/main/2010/aug/all-shahs-men-part-4-1.html
Yes, you are right that I glossed over a lot of the details of what happened in 1953. I thought this was appropriate given the context of the broader point I was trying to address - namely, the huge strategic importance of Iran to the West.
This is kind of a big problem I have with talking about politics and history - either you gloss over important details to make a point, or you have to write a book. I think the myth of Kermit Roosevelt and his bag of money endures, not (just) because of propaganda, but because it is 'true enough' - it serves to put a national event within the regional context of the decline of British/rise of American influence, and the global narrative of the Cold War.
That's probably true except for Israel. The government of SA is more or less neutral toward Israel, not so the government of Iran.
Interestingly the exact opposite is true of the people of Iran vs SA. I believe the average person in Iran hates Israel less than the average person in SA.
Since there is oil, the US needs reliable partners. Saudi Arabia (totalitarian regime with an abysmal human rights record) and Israel (actively engaging in war crimes and apartheid) are the best America can manage.
Saudi Arabia has more money than they know what to do with, and they're easily placated by selling them advanced weapons. Israel is on a much tighter budget and is more militarily vulnerable so they need a lot more help. That they've pissed off everyone in their immediate environment doesn't help, either.
Sadly, pre-revolution Iran and pre-civil war Lebanon were vibrant, flourishing countries. Then some geo-political meddling went down and here we are, a total mess.
The US was initially a reluctant ally with Israel. The Soviet Union was actively arming Israel's Arab neighbors and fanning the flames of war to win influence with oil producing Arab states. At the same time the US had embargoes on selling arms to Israel because it was reluctant to fan the flames of war and also to antagonize Israel's Arab neighbors.
Unbeknownst to the US Israel had developed a nuclear weapons capability and at the start of the Six Day war Israel felt threatened enough to deploy them. In what must have been an interesting phone call Israel informed the US both of their nuclear weapons capability and that they were going to nuke Cairo. In order to dissuade Israel from this course of action the US promised swift delivery of modern anti-tank weapons and depleted their Western European inventory of these weapons. This helped turn the tide of the conflict and reduce potential of a nuclear exhange in the Middle East.
The result of the Six Day War was that the US committed to keeping Israel at par with its Arab neighbors conventional military capabilities if Israel would keep its nuclear capability in check.
A great writeup of the history is here:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm
This still plays an active role in the US and Israeli relationship and was even a factor in the negotiations over the Iranian nuclear program but the nuances are rarely picked up by the US press.
Israel also plays an outsized role in US politics because it is an influential issue with Jewish voters and also, oddly, Evangelicals. Evangelicals see the establishment of a Jewish State in Israel as a prerequisite to the rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Great article on how the delicate compromises in the Middle East were almost toppled by a cow:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/rea...
"...win influence with oil producing Arab states..."
Yeah, nothing to do with oil.
It's all about oil. That whole area is about oil. A case could be made that World War I was about oil, that British naval supremacy depended on it, and everything since then is a mostly direct cascade from that.
Also don't forget that the extreme Evangelicals believe that the establishment of and subsequent destruction of Israel is a necessary precursor to the Rapture. What a psychotic viewpoint.
"...for reasons that have nothing to do with oil"
"...win influence with oil producing Arab states..."
Stability is only a concern because of the critical suppliers there. Notice how little interest is paid to places like central Africa where, apart from Nigeria, there's no productive oil fields.
Also there was no need for Israel to use it's nuclear weapons during the Six Day war, it destroyed the Egyptian Air Force within the first 5 hours of the war.
I think you are confusing a lot of "facts" here, your story might fit more with the 1973 war, but during that war if were the soviets who've actively moved theater level nuclear weapons into Egypt and the US had put pressure on Israel to stop it's advancement.
Overall if you read slightly better sources you would see that the Six Day war actually pushed the Israeli weapon program back, France have stopped the cooperation with Israel and the knock-out victory that the Israelis have dealt to the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria as as gaining control over the Sinai Peninsula which meant that Egypt can no longer blockade Israel as it lost the controls over the straits of Tiran made the need for a bomb not as urgent.
The nuclear program has really stepped up after the 1973 war both because Israel decided that the added geographical depth of the Sinai wasn't sufficient and because the Soviets have actually pushed weapons into the theater which meant that Israel needed a MAD option and quickly.
For those who don't want to wade through the bulk of the material (which is still fascinating) the relevant history begins is Section III of the document and relevant sections condensed below:
Defense Minister Moshe Dayan, obviously not at his best at a press briefing, was, according to Time magazine, rattled enough to later tell the prime minister that “this is the end of the third temple,” referring to an impending collapse of the state of Israel. “Temple” was also the code word for nuclear weapons... The Israelis assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs. U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was notified of the alert several hours later on the morning of 9 October....
Israeli commandos flew to Fort Benning, Georgia to train with the new American TOW anti-tank missiles and return with a C-130 Hercules aircraft full of them in time for the decisive Golan battle. American commanders in Germany depleted their stocks of missiles, at that time only shared with the British and West Germans, and sent them forward to Israel.
Thus started the subtle, opaque use of the Israeli bomb to ensure that the United States kept its pledge to maintain Israel's conventional weapons edge over its foes. There is significant anecdotal evidence that Henry Kissinger told President of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, that the reason for the U.S. airlift was that the Israelis were close to “going nuclear.”
The timeline of all of these events do not make any sense and are with odds with official declassified Israeli and US documents.
The TOW missile part is especially humourous.
P.S. By the time the first US airlift has landed in Israel, the Israelis have already broken through the Egyptian lines, the 2nd Egyptian army was surrounded and cut off and the Israelites crossed the Suez canal. Overall the reason the US agreed for the airlift was because the soviets were already running airlifts into Egypt and the US did not want to risk the soviets deciding to commit troops (well other than "advisers").
Recent declassified documents about the CIA briefings to Nixon also show that the Soviet actually transported nuclear material into Egypt during the 1973 war, this was what put the US on high alert, and it's also the reason why they sent their SR-71's over Israel and the Sinai and the pressing the Israeli government to hold their advance or they'll release the photographs to the UN. http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/26/opinions/secret-briefings-...
In regards to game theory it's better for the US to have Israel as an ally and make an enemy of Iran than the opposite. Don't forget that Israel has nuclear weapons and the country would not hesitate to use them in self defense. Also while the Saudi's are scum, you'd have a situation worse than Iraq if you removed them from power.
In the end there's no great answer, just one that has a not as worse outcome.
Pakistan also has nuclear weapons, Israel's use as such is probably mutually assured destruction, not 'self-defense'.
Developed independently of the US[1], in cooperation with the apartheid government of South Africa. South Africa went on to become the first (if not only) country to voluntarily give up it's nuclear weapons program, right on the cusp of black rule.
Officially, the US does not/will not acknowledge Israel's nuclear capability.
I'm not sure I'd call Israel a "true friend." At a high level they may be ideologically aligned with the West, but they're simply using the USA to advance their own interests.
Jews and Persians are natural allies, and have been allied in the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Israel_relations
It's not out of the realm of possibility that as shale production diminishes the importance of both the House of Saud and the declining declining value of Russian energy exports, Israel pivots back to Iran. Many sharp analysts predicted the US's pivot to Iran for over half a decade before it visibly started to happen, and many of those same analysts don't subscribe to the prevailing media narrative that Iran's religion necessarily constrains it to alignment with Arab nations, rather than Israel or the US.
- China was run by the Han, and trade with China was very important for the West.
- Western Europe was part of a large power bloc, using the same money (with border struggles in Britannia).
- Judea was a gyre of instability that bedeviled the West and sucked them into middle east conflicts.
- Egypt had the strongest military in all of Africa.
Physical geography determines a lot of cultural geography; similar power dynamics replay over generations.
And SA opposes Hezbollah.
This happens over and over in the Middle East. Syria is the most recent example. The urban middle class revolted against Assad hoping for democracy, but instead their war got completely taken over by the much more powerful islamists. Now they are between a rock and a hard place.
If you have any middle eastern friends, they are probably quite modern, liberal and friendly to Western values. I know mine are. But there is a strong selection bias there. The real "common people" don't go to study in a European university.
Edit: I'd encourage all the downvotes butt hurt by this truth to learn a little more about the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and the Quuds forces. No other country has a special forces dedicated to cultivating, training and supply in terrorists worldwide (groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are only two examples out of many). We're not talking a one-off phenomena, rather a multi-decade program that has split the world into sectors and has dedicated special forces in each area. This is why you have IRG trying to cultivate Islamic extremism in Venezuela, and bombings of Jewish community centers in Argentina. It's literally not a contest; Iran has been the most skilled and successful sponsor of religious terrorism in the world.
Surely some of you know someone who has served in the US armed forces in the Middle East. Ask them who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are...
This is a similarly shallow response.
But saying that forces on the ground are the best and most objective at assessing who is in the right and the wrong in these conflicts, who is 'good' and 'bad' is simply farcical, because all of the indoctrination and (indeed necessary) biases ("identify this person/group as bad, as they are a direct threat to my life, even though their overarching motivations may be the most noble") warp their perspective.
But my point is that Iran is unique in that it foments religious terrorism as matter of state policy unmatched in the world. Quds forces aren't exploiting religious people for their ends, they are true believers who are actively trying to bring their Islamist revolution to the rest of the world in a systematic and patient way.
A subjective and clearheaded analysis of available facts must lead to the conclusion that it's a literal terrorist state, and I think the poster you responded to is trying to dispel the false equivalency and 'what-aboutism' so prevalent in this thread and Chomsky-ist worldviews.
I doubt they would recognize themselves as the bad guys.
You're ignoring the main thrust of my argument, that the Iranian government is dominated by religious extremists who sincerely believe it is their religious duty to spread their theocratic revolution across the world.
To this end the Iranian government has been closely involved in cultivating religious terrorism across the world for decades. You say that people expelled from Saudi Arabia end up in IS, this claim pales in comparison to the training, logistical support and technical expertise Iran directs to groups it helped create like Hamas and hezbollah. When american soldiers are killed by an IED in Iraq, it is most likely Iranian special forces that taught those terrorists how to make the IED, supplied the materials for it, and work closely with said groups to track their lethality and suggest improvements. They've literally dedicated engineers to inventing new IEDs to help penetrate American personnel carriers and kill more American troops.
Again, the difference here is everything I just said is the Iranian government formally coordinating with terrorists across the world in order to improve their lethality, not some rogue faction.
The same is true of the USA. Whether you agree with them or not is highly dependent on whether you stand to be a beneficiary of the spoils of their wars, or not.
And, btw, the CIA has exported far, far more terror than the IRG ever has.
Iran is currently the largest exporter of religiously inspired extremism, bar none. They are not engaged in short-term realpolitik that installs favorable governments in previously unfavorable countries. The IRG and Quds forces are true believers who see it as their duty to cultivate religious extremism across the world, and have been practicing their trade for the past several _decades_. There is no other country in the world that has been as deeply committed at all levels of government to fomenting sectarian violence throughout the world for nearly as long, and this is why Iran has such a powerful sphere of influence. These groups see the success of clients like Hamas and Hezbollah as their crowning achievements, and have been actively cultivating similar groups for the past several decades.
Again, the indisputable fact that I keep harping on is that Iran is the largest exporter of religiously inspired violence, bar none.
If the same was true of Saudi Arabia there is no doubt western liberals would have no problem publicly flagellating themselves, but since America is currently hostile towards Iran there are inevitably 'what-abouters' who will pop up and defend the propagation of violent interpretations of Shia ideology.
If you would like to contradict this fact, you could probably start by naming the US forces that Christian theology using torture, bombings, and creation of fundamentalist Christian terror groups. Until then, Iran is the largest exporter of religiously inspired violence, bar none.
The USA is just as guilty of this as any other nation. You're just not as willing to see it, since it doesn't fit your anti-Islam, pro-Christian narrative.
The motivation for doing so may be geopolitical rather than religious on the part of decisionmakers, but then, that's hardly unique among nations fomenting sectarian violence, Islamic or otherwise.
> There are very, very few atheists in Congress calling for the bombing of Iran,
There are very, very few open atheists in Congress, whether or not they are calling for the bombing of Iran.
But the difference in current geopolitics is that KSA is more fearful of, and has more to lose from ISIL than any other middle eastern country while Iran greatly benefits from the spread of their religious extremism. ISIL would greatly like to supplant KSA as the keeper of Mecca, Medina, and the Qabaa, while extremist Shia groups look to the Ayatollah as their spiritual leader. Can you see the distinction there?
Furthermore, I think your assertions overstate the actual history. Nixons alliance with the Saudis didn't ease any fears of sectarianism, but again the Saudi theocratic rentier government has been trying to tamp down on extremism since their legitimacy was threatened in 1979. The deposing of the Shah wasn't intended to stoke religious extremism, but it did and that is our legacy. The Neocons flirted with fomenting sectarian violence against the USSR in supporting the mujahideen, especially with logistical support and surface-to-air missiles. The Bush administration helped Iran inadvertently through beaurucratic incompetence and replacing a secular leader with a Shia dominated government who informally looks to Iran as its ally. But you also have to acknowledge that the removal of a secular dictator in favor of a Shia government has done more to balance the scales of power in favor of the Shia and lessened the power of our Saudi (Sunni) allies. This has a net effect of leveling the playing field between the two sides - while increasing the paranoia of Sunnis, it also gives the Iranians greater leverage in the region (giving them a greater stick in which to force Saudi cooperation). The Obama administration has flirted in small scales with supporting Syrian Sunni fighters and has prolonged the conflict by refusing to negotiate with Assad. The US has played an outsized role in the Middle East and must answer for it.
But again, these pale in comparison to the level of _sustained_ investment the Iranian government has made over the past 30+ years. We're not talking about a series of one-off realpolitik maneuvers. Iran is universally recognized as the most skilled operator in the region for good reason - no other country has operated in these areas for as long, or understands the culture or motivations as well. No other country is coordinating bombings in South America, and no other is trying to cultivate fundamentalist extremism there.
Lastly, I'd duspute the idea that I'm biased against Iran. I think the Persian people are probably the most amenable to western values out of any in the region, and current geopolitics notwithstanding they are probably the best hope for America to secure a long term peace in the region. I hope the moderate factions continue to achieve more successes as they have done with the nuclear accords, and there may even be a chance to end the heartbreaking tragedy in Syria by acknowledging their regional influence.
But I feel compelled to tell the truth as I see it, and to me that is acknowledging the fact that Iran is currently the worlds leading cultivator of fundamentalist terror. That doesn't mean I conflate the Ayatollah with the Persian people, that means the government of Iran is the central coordinator of Shia extremism throughout the world today, their spiritual leader. As with any government there are factions, but Irans hardliners came to power in the revolution and maintain power to this day. If moderates succeed in gaining more ground the region will be much safer overall.
Lastly, you again dodged my point. America is not cultivating Christian terror groups that look to Obama as their spiritual leader.
In Iran that is due to the Ayatollah Khomeini and his crew. (Nominally he isn't a dictator, in theory he is, in reality there are politics and practical considerations.)
In the USA, it is due to Republican gerrymandering (total votes cast for Senate and House slightly favor Democrats, but they don't hold majorities in either house. Same for state legislatures - half of the republican controlled states had majority votes for Democrats).