“Sonicwall products are not returnable”
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[http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/solutions/us-return-...]
http://i.imgur.com/MTOujSd.jpg
Was that so hard, Dell? Was it?
The europeans laws offer little protection to companies. Consumer laws apply only when selling directly to consumers.
What? The factory can't restore the firmware to as-new condition? That's a bit of a problem in itself, isn't it?
In contrast, we bought a whole bunch of Mikrotik's RouterBoards, they're really inexpensive and come with really powerful features that you don't need to pay extra for. We're starting to deploy them everywhere and we'll eventually phase out the shitty Sonicwall.
Many WISP's use Ubiquiti wiresless equipment paired with Mikrotik's on the back end.
I recommend attending one of their conferences if you ever get the chance. In the US, they usually have one annually in Las Vegas[1] (a lot of fun!, and they have one coming up soon in October). They also do conferences around the world[2].
It's been a few years since I attended one, but they used to (and might still) give out free products at the conferences. Usually it was a free sample of one of their new products. For example, I got an original UniFi device when they launched that product line. Installed it at home (way overkill for a small house!), and it's still working perfectly all these years later (has to be close to 5-6 years).
Ubiquiti's conferences are a lot less expensive than the Mikrotik MUM's (conferences), although Mikrotik's offer a lot of training and what-not as well as normal conference talks.
[1] http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences...
[2] http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences...
I felt like a total asshole telling this client we needed to shell out another few hundred bones. Then the thing ran like shit (need a lot of rebooting) and we replaced it after 9 months.
Haven't looked at their garbage since.
Sonicwalls have a comparable feature set for hardware and basic networking, but also add the ability to do some UTM on the device - things like content filtering, antivirus, etc. for traffic passing through. There's nothing comparable that I've ever heard of on the Mikrotiks.
In fairness, I believe these are subscription based services on the sonicwall (at least it was when I had a sonicwall). The same features would normally be implemented in different devices, and could still be with a mikrotik.
And I don't see a reason why something couldn't be done on the mikrotik - either natively with some scripting, or by making use of the meta-router functionality (a linux vm running on the router which you can pass traffic too and have advanced stuff done)
They are not rock-solid routers and frequently ship buggy releases, especially if you are using advanced features or their wireless offerings. They are great, they have a ton of powerful features, but don't use them unless you plan to spend time maintaining them and learning a lot about them.
Manipulating their firewall rules is also a really cool way to intro yourself to iptables concepts.
"If you try to return an eligible item within 90 days from the date of purchase and the merchant won't take it back, American Express may refund the full purchase price (excluding shipping and handling), up to $300 per item, up to a maximum of $1,000 per calendar year per Card account, if you purchased it entirely with your eligible American Express® Card. Please read important exclusions and restrictions.‡"
But: have you read the "important exclusions and restrictions"?
Also, the buyer would still be out of around 200$ plus shipping even if he'd be refunded by Amex...
But yeah, it's only $300. Perhaps the fancy AmEx cards have a more robust benefit. It's pretty nice for "free" though.
Full terms are here https://web.aexp-static.com/us/content/pdf/card-benefits/Pla...
That said, is it really normal to expect to be able to return a non-faulty product once it's shipped, or unreasonable of Dell to refuse such returns if they don't want to sell on that basis?
In my country (the UK) there are consumer protection laws that include various rights to return goods purchased remotely for a short period even if they aren't defective. In principle, these are supposed to allow for not being able to inspect the actual product the way you could in person if you bought from a store. However, for better or worse, business customers do not enjoy the same legal protections as private individuals, and a lot of potentially one-sided terms that would be unlikely to stand up in a B2C context because of statutory protections seem to be routine in B2B sales.
I've done it with expensive routers/switches from Cisco and SFP+'s from various vendors.
Never had any issues either. Cisco even cross-shipped the gear we wanted.
Although I think corporate account vs one-offs make the difference here ;-)
It's normal for people to make mistakes, including people who are Dell customers. Good, normal businesses accommodate their customers, try to help them succeed and build good relationships, and don't treat them like suckers, potential criminals or bad schoolchildren when something goes wrong. They don't cite terms, they find solutions.
But for a business customer, there is an easy solution to this problem: Find a vendor who does want your business. Be glad it happened with a $500 order and not something more expensive; it's a cheap lesson and the sooner it happened the better.
My guess is that Dell will lose more when the customer leaves and tells their friends (ignoring the HN post) than they would over one return. But that's their problem, not yours.
Clearly there are cultural differences in expectations here. I respect the way it works in the US, but i personally like the UK approach explained eloquently above, as I get just enough protection and no more.
Avoiding being (indirectly) exposed to the other customers' fickle ordering with scant attention seems a good thing to me (not that I'm implying this occurred in this case, I see this was a genuine mistake). I'm sure some will say that a big company can swallow the costs, but clearly that money has to come from somewhere and it's from prices higher than they would otherwise be, passed on to everyone.
Candidly, you should never use it for anything other than taking money out of an ATM.
Debit card gets stolen - All my money is taken out of my bank. I now cannot pay my rent or buy groceries. I tell bank, and they start an investigation. Maybe in 90 days I get my money back.
Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
Also many people (like me) don't have good enough credit to get a fancy-pants 2% back credit card.
I personally use a Simple card for spending and only transfer spending money to it weekly - helps keep spending in check and limits my losses if it were lost / stolen. I've been using a method like that for several years and avoiding credit cards as much as possible and I'm now very close to being completely out of debt, which never would have happened if I continued to rely on my own self-will to not overspend on a credit card.
This is why I have a second checking account that I transfer money to from my primary checking every few days to match the current credit card balance. That way, my primary checking always contains money free of credit card obligation. (Obviously, I then pay off the statement balance from this account every month.)
The first rule of using credit cards for fun and profit is to never carry a balance. Ever.
Now, there is an exception to this rule, on the following conditions (all must apply):
1. You do not pay any interest (yes, possible, many cards have promotions, especially store/brand cards)
2. The purchase is for a very long-term item, like major electronic appliance or a alike, that you will be using for several years at least.
3. Due to some circumstances you couldn't foresee you could not save for the purchase upfront and you absolutely need it right now - e.g., you refrigerator suddenly died and you need a new one ASAP.
4. You know and calculated the monthly payment which allows you to pay off the whole sum in a year or less (and of course before promotional no-interest period expires), and this monthly payment is less than what you would be able to save if (3) did not apply. If this rule is not true, you can not afford it, look for a cheaper alternative. Also, never pay just a minimum payment, this is a trap.
Credit card balance is a loan, and these rules are a way to make it into a cheap loan. But be careful - it's like a can of gasoline, can be very handy to get you into places you want to be if you handle it right, but handle it wrong and you can end up badly burned or worse.
If you follow these rules, you can use credit card with relative safety, as even if you overspend one month, you'll have to cut back next month to pay for it. Also improves your credit score :) But if you notice you can't use it without carrying a balance - don't use it at all.
That was literally my entire point :-)
I have no doubt that many people have this figured out, but my point is that 'use your credit card for everything always' isn't necessarily good advice for everyone.
5. You refrain from further transactions with that card, since your grace period is gone and new purchases will immediately accrue interest.
(Although I suppose you could operate in an different paradigm where you make payments as frequently as possible with most all of your spending money, and then new purchases on the card are just effectively taking away from that payment)
FWIW it feels like the additional complexity of those offers coupled with the relaxing of standard payment behavior is a great way to trip people up.
Personally, not having things like Simple around for the ~20 years I've been living on my own, I already have a system of budgeting (Python+SQLite for the last few years) and zero impulse buying habits outside a greasy lunch from my favorite food cart now and then.
So for me, putting mortgage, utils, and food on the CC and pay it off with my first check of the month works just fine. And I don't have to switch financial providers.
Especially hesitant seeing they're owned by a multinational bank with a dubious history. My local CU seems much more approachable and personable, despite Simple's trendy "human" branding.
In the early days (1960s/1970s), credit card companies welcomed (perhaps even sponsored? I don't remember) the legislated responsibility for risk because it encouraged the uptake of credit cards.
Nowadays, of course, almost everyone has a card and almost every merchant needs to take them. So the card cartels were able to shift part of the burden onto the merchants, and in particular the smaller ones. But not all of it.
Banks managed to evade most of the credit card rules in debit cards. Debit cards are a MUCH better deal for banks (they don't incur interest -- except for overdraw fees, but they also don't carry ANY of the protections credit cards do).
> Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
As an alternative: if you can get a credit card at all, just get one. You don't need to worry about "benefits" (cash rebates, miles or whatever, just get one that doesn't charge you an annual fee.
When you buy something online or swipe, send the CC come any a check that same day. There's no rule saying you have to pay them only when you get a bill. If you do this you'll never accrue interest.
Having to write out checks daily kind of defeats the purpose of using a credit card instead of a checkbook.
Not true - if you report fraudulent charges the money must be returned to your account within 10 days until the investigation is concluded according to federal law. Many banks will return the money much immediately as well - if yours doesn't, get a new bank.
Visa and Mastercard, who control 100% of the debit card processing in the US, both have 0-liability policies on debit cards, and as the payment processors, they have required banks to follow suit, and to follow an immediate refund policy on fraud as well.
Please tell me why I would use Debit again? Remember I also lose the 2% cashback I get on my credit, on top of my bank account being drained for 10 days and perhaps my mortgage payment bouncing if I didn't catch it in time.
If your debit card is branded Visa/MC, the bank is required to issue an "immediate" (usually "overnight") refund while investigated.
I don't have time to mess with that. Use credit.
What bank took 90 days to refund fraudulent purchases? I'd like to know to avoid them forever.
(It's true that using a debit card means whatever checking account you used could get zeroed out; it's probably a good idea just to open a second account to use for online stuff, if you don't already have an account that serves a similar purpose).
However, lot's of banks make it really easy to overdraw funds when using a debit card. In particular the ordering of transactions can cause you to overdraw (consider charge/refund/charge when a mistake was made; the bank could order it charge/charge/refund and you are now potentially overdrawn despite no day ending with you having a negative balance).
In particular, my past experience with Chase is that they pull crappy stuff like this all the time, nickel-and-dime-you with charges and then act surprised when you close all of your accounts with them.
Have you been asking them to reverse charges? Any time I have any trouble with any account ever, I always say "can you check if this generated any overdraft charges, and if so, can you reverse them"; it seems to work.
The point was that my experience with Chase sans fraudulent charges makes me believe that it would take months to see the money in the days before it was illegal for them to do so.
Since you mentioned Citibank, I've never banked with them, but I did have a visa with them back in college. I was young so only had the card for 18 months, but I'd never had a single late payment when a bill got put in the wrong mailbox in my dorm. By the time I got it, it was 2 days before it was due. I called up Citi (2 days before the due date) and asked them if they could waive the late fee/interest provided it was posted the following day. The answer was no and they had an additional fee (which they also wouldn't waive) for doing a bank transfer, which would save me from the late fee. I told the I'd do that and to please close the account. Asking to close the account got me to talk to his manager, but they didn't bend on any of the fees.
I've had much better customer experience with credit cards from Discover, American Express and (somewhat ironically given my banking story) Chase.
For many people in Europe ( including myself ) the only other online option is a bank transfer, which also has the risk of loss of funds if you mistype the target account number[0]
The workaround for only having a debit card is to have it linked to a buffer account that only holds sufficient funds for the planned purchases.
[0] when submitting such a payment my bank kindly notes that they may not be able to reclaim my payment should I make a typo.
Even if you obtain one, european credit limits are nothing like the american counterparts. They usually are much smaller.
I have the opposite problem though. I live in Austria and can't get a Visa/Mastercard debit card. The concept is totally foreign here. They use the stupid Maestro debit cards, which are useless online and in the United States.
If anyone can tell me how I can obtain a Visa/Mastercard debit card here, he will have my eternal gratitude.
I agree with the other fellow that you should avoid using them, though. You may have the same rights, but the potential consequences are different. A credit card which you pay off each month provides the same basic functionality but with more safety. Plus you get to make 0.01% of interest off the float.
They will suddenly want to get it back, and most likely will not argue against the dispute.
The rules are pretty clear on this stuff from Visa and Mastercard-- retailers are on the hook. With the kind of fraud they deal with ,being able to actually get the item back from the customer is a good thing for them.
Their return policy is asinine and counter productive. Maybe they think that so many customers will just eat the charge it is worth it.
But I would highly doubt you will lose your dispute (unless your bank is terrible.)
I have disputed various things over the years, when running into bad merchants. Only once has the dispute not gone in my favor -- and I no longer do business with that bank (Wells Fargo, it was a particularly egregious situation too. Over a $60 dispute they have lost $400 a year in revenue.)
But in this case, it sounds like the merchandise was what was ordered, it's just that the order was a mistake.
Disputing that on the basis you gave would be unethical at best, and quite possibly a violation of both the buyer's card agreement and the law as well.
At least for Germany I can point to several web pages that show that business buyers don't have those protections (German, sorry):
- http://www.wirtschaftsrecht-news.de/2013/08/widerrufs-und-ru... (no returns for B2B or C2C)
- http://www.shopbetreiber-blog.de/2007/03/22/kein-widerrufsre... (the decision of a court in a case)
Protip for freelancers and small businesses: While it might look really cool, don't buy IT equipment as a business (unless you want to pay extra for services guaranteeing continous operation of said equipment), but as a consumer. This means your equipment will fall under consumer law and means that (for example) when you want to return a item the store you bought it at they will have to comply.
Please note that the Right to Cancel applies to Home customers only.
You return goods by using the Right to Cancel so while not explicitly mentioned it seems to be the same as in the US.
This doesn't pay off. If you're earning more than 15K EUR per year, you have to charge VAT. If you buy stuff as consumer you're not eligible for a VAT return. If you're any kind of limited liability company, stuff needs to be on the company books. You certainly can buy as a private person and resell to company, but that just increased the price by about 20%. Plus: selling stuff to the company makes the tax authorities look really hard at your papers since at least in germany, if prices are not market rate you might just have committed a criminal offence (verdeckte Gewinnentnahme). Talk to your tax accountant before pulling stunts like this.
Disclaimer: I work for a VAR
I wouldn't know who to work with to buy Dell, aside from typing "dell.com" and buying it. I thought that was their whole business model -- direct sales, no inventory, JIT shipping and the like.
IBM: "Well, we're IBM and you're $300k annual spending wouldn't be a huge loss"
VAR: "Well, this is Bill from VAR, and we do over $40M in purchases a year, and this will be very enlightening in future purchase recommendations."
IBM: "Uhhh... hold on for a moment please..."Their whole reason for existence was to cut out VARs and sell direct to the customer.
We tried getting a second quote, and the VAR said: "Dell tells us you are already speaking to another VAR about this equipment, so they won't supply us a quote."
It will be very difficult to contest a chargeback for something you returned.
When it finally arrived at my house, I was missing several items that were part of the "bundle" I paid for. I was Missing the headset as well as the extra controller and free game they advertised. Calling their support was an exercise in patience as it turned into a debate about what I ordered. Dell had purposely sent the included receipt with tactically chosen wording that I had just ordered a normal Xbox bundle they always sold. A classic bait-n-switch.
I had an argument with the support person about that being wrong yet they insisted, DESPITE my time/date of order showing to purposely take advantage of the BF deal and a screen shot of my order. They still fought it as the included receipt was their trump card. So basically all a company has to do is fix the sent receipt and change the order wording and there is no defense for being taken advantage of? I was livid.
A quick search of the net found out I wasn't alone in this bat/switch Xbox bundle BF deal. Eventually they gave in to the headset and sent me a Dell gift card for the amount to order a headset through them. This was now further proof I had ordered a SPECIAL BF deal as they admitted it by comping the headset. But they still would not budge on the extra controller or the free game.
I decided to try and stick it to them instead for their deceptive tactics and issued a complaint with my credit card for not getting what I paid for. I filed for full amount of purchase of the BF deal and explained what happened to my CC company. They mentioned they had similar complaint already about same thing for someone else. So I did a chargeback. Not intending to get free Xbox but rather try to scare Dell to just make good.
Months went by and I find out Dell fought it, as expected. Dell now was offering me a full refund and to send everything back. I was ready to do just that and buy from elsewhere now BUT, get this, Dell said I had to pay for return shipping! So now instead of getting everything I paid for, they now expect me to be OUT $30 to ship it back with now NOTHING to show for.
So that is where it ended. I gave up. I wasn't getting the advertised controller or free game and just wasn't going to be -$30 at this point for nothing than to prove a point. So I kept the Xbox, paid for it and just accepted Dell has now become a piece of shit company. And I will NEVER buy or recommend to anyone, including many clients, Dell or anything the sell again.
If they didn't have this policy and I was a state sponsored intelligence agency I would be buying, tampering, and returning as many as I could.
Plus, just about every device with a computer/storage inside could in theory be tampered with. So, your argument seems to imply that a 'no return' policy should be enforced on most equipment. That's just insane.
I'm not advocating to carry a balance when using credit. I pay mine off every month reaping the benefits without paying any interest.