A scammer stole $500 from me and in the end begged me not to tell his parents
blog.haschek.at
blog.haschek.at
It does everyone a disservice to not tell his parents.
The author got manipulated twice. First convinced to hand over his money and then convinced not to tell the parents.
The scammer player the author like a guitar. Right there is the psychopath's first big lesson - "people listen when I cry".
The genius of the scammer/budding psychopath being that the blogger thinks he "won".
The author wasn't manipulated twice, he didn't let the scammer get away with it. Although he should probably call the police.
Telling the parents would probably be more impactful - especially given that he really wanted to prevent that from happening.
I don't think it would be unusual for a 22 year old student to visit home and borrow mum's laptop.
To be frank, I think I wish the word "psychopath" was deleted from the dictionary altogether. It's just a handy label to apply to all sorts of baddies, effectively dehumanizing them (he's a psychopath- he would do anything to you, so you're justified in doing anything to him).
These people rarely change; if you don't punish them severely, you're giving them an unfair advantage over honest people. We don't want to live in a society dominated by crooks.
How do you know? What's for sure is that a regime of severe punishment guarantees that they won't, whereas an opportunity to reform (a carrot appropriately seasoned by a stick if necessary) at least allows that they might.
(Also, who are "these people"? People who do something wrong? Have you never? Your misdeeds have been more minor, assuredly, but what if one of 'us' finds them offensive enough that you suddenly become one of 'them'?)
I can sympathize to some extent - But in a broader context, if you don't severely punish this behaviour (when caught), it becomes a beneficial attribute for people to have... Fast forward a few generations and society would be filled with such people.
After being caught, this scammer was actively trying to be seen as a human being. That is exactly the tactics he chose and this is exactly the tactics that helped him escape any punishment so far. I would advise against humanizing scammers too much.
In other words, in your view, if he doesn't look human then he's a psychopath; if he does, this proves again that he's a psychopath. Confirmation bias?
Ah, by the way and just FYI, psychopaths and scammers are human beings.
(No, I don't think that calling scammers bad names is a viable anti-scammer strategy. I just don't agree with the opposing effort, which should only be expected from the scammer.)
Why would you even bother making this post? I can't imagine there is even like .0000001% of your being that believes that this is remotely close to what the person you're responding to thinks, so what exactly is this meant to accomplish? "haha, look at me mocking a point you never came close to making..."?
This is what the GP posted. He was very clearly saying that the scammer was "actively trying to be seen as a human being", something that apparently in the mind of the GP he's not- or at least not completely.
Well, maybe I misinterpreted, but I read it as "the fact that he tries to look scared and repentant is a further proof that he's a psychopath" - which would be a circular reasoning, since he's assumed that he's trying on the base that he's supposedly a psychopath. In any case I don't see any hint to the possibility that he might have been genuinely scared.
So to answer your question, mine was a reductio ad absurdum: given the GP's premises, the only way not to look as a psychopath would have been to look as a psychopath.
Best way to express your opinion about something with someone is directly, not by asking their parents to do so for you.
Unless of course the parents have not built good relationship with their children, in which case the kids might not care a hoot what the parents think.
Exactly, which is why it's very possible that the scammer behavior was learned from by the kid from their parents.
I actively engage people around me. I've tried the whole talking to parents way, and if you don't know them it's not uncommon for the response to be to mind your own business or worse, "Fuck you, I know how to raise my kids."
Beyond that, I've found that a number of parents with "good relationships" over estimate that the relationship is based on authority, not respect. This becomes obvious when the parent no longer has any authority over their children.
Allowing the parent to fail might be super negative for the scammer too. For example, parents withdrawal of financial support for his education, kicking them out, reporting them to the police, or worse, the kid commits suicide; if you read the kids responses, it's very clear they're not stable.
Fine with you disagreeing with my experiences of helping people, but please be careful in how you apply your approach in the real world.
Kids do stupid stuff, always. Doesn't mean they want their parent to figure out.
Sure, "call the police" works if there's not another answer or you live a sheltered life, but to me, this is the very reason that communities are failing.
People can become even more concerned to win their parents approval as they grow through adulthood.
When I think of the things I've done as an adult that I'm least proud of then I wouldn't want to tell my parents about them.
As a child with no experience you've got an excuse for your mistakes. As an adult choosing to scam people the only places you've got to hide seem to be anonymity and sociopathy.
Unless that was more scammer bait to distract from the original intent to tell the police.
If he was 16 or 17, it probably wouldn't be too late to tell his parents, although that depends on the family. 22 is way too old for that.
In addition, I think the author should at least release the details of the eBay account to the public to make them googleable in connection with the scam. Since it was the eBay account that convinced the author to go first, it can convince other people too.
Later found out that the very user he made the deal with me was banned from most trading subs.. my mistake, glad it worked out for me though :D
This sounds like exactly what the scammer wanted to manipulate everybody into thinking.
To me, the scammer's message stinks to high heaven. I translate "Oh noes, I'm just a poor college kid, I'm so totally having panic attacks over this, pretty please don't ever tell my parents!" to "These guys aren't hardcore enough to want to get me in real trouble. If I just beg a little, pretend to panic, and pretend to be afraid of my parents, they'll exercise their sense of justice by telling them, and I'll slide for this one too."
IMO, a lot of people here are very sheltered and have never had to deal in an extended way with somebody who was a serious con man. It can be hard to comprehend people who have no respect at all for people and social conventions. You can be sure they won't stop until they face real consequences. People like him are why the admittedly flawed criminal justice system exists. Speaking of which, many would do well to keep in mind that at least some of the people in jail are very, very good at convincing naive people that they are just innocent victims of bad circumstances, have found Jesus, or whatever else will get them out of jail the fastest, and free to run more and better cons.
The second time around, for this nonprofit, I grokked he was a full blown psychopath (although not quickly enough) - the people who had been working with him for the previous 5 years had kept giving him the benefit of the doubt wrt his horrible interpersonal style and behaviour. They got me sucked into the mess because I trusted them over my gut.
In the dust-up over matters this summer, this clown kept claiming he was the victim to an outrageous extent despite the fact it was his actions that instigated the blow up of the organization. People with anti-social personality disorders are very good at social manipulation / PR / etc and it's difficult to get bystanders to really understand the whole thing w/o a lot of explanation, which bystanders are not terribly interested in listening to - e.g. "which person is the real victim?" I think a key factor in these sorts of events is that the scammer etc sets the situation up (or makes plans to) to be able to successfully play the victim from the outset when needed.
The police should have been contacted. "Poor me" talk from a 22 year old ... it all sounded really fake. There is something in the way language is "used" that triggers my warning bells. Then again, I am biased as I have been through this myself first hand in dealing with a 57 year old. I can now see how twisty his use of language was and how glossing over details and omitting facts can guide the reader into believing what is being said - not outright lies, but manipulation of the reader's emotions.
That's what I thought, too. For some reason, scammers often have high social intelligence. Maybe it's like with any other domain: if you understand how computers work, you are compelled to use computers a lot. If you understand how people work, you must be compelled to use people?
He sent me a bogus Bitcoin transfer email from a well known escrow service.
I stupidly did not check header information, as I was in a rush at the time, and shipped without confirming it.
All was well, until he sends me a picture of the card, with essentially a HAHAHAHA, various derogatory remarks, name calling, you name it. I was calm, and collective, tried various bargaining options to recover it. His arrogance was overwhelming.
He posts all over forums, showing how clever he was. This is where he made his fatal mistake.
Investigation begins. I sift through tons, and tons of forum posts, all over the internet. Come up with a handful of names, and various aliases he uses. Was able to confirm that his current location, was around the area where the package was sent(to a home).
Got in contact with the feds regarding online scams, no response.
Got in contact with local police, they tell me nothing can be done, contact feds.
Got in contact with the local news of where the package was shipped, who gets me in contact with the local police that they are friends with.
Police contacts me, and I send over all my logs and information. Police make some visits to the destination address, and it turns out they are actually the friend of the kid.
The kid finally breaks, and furiously emails me scared that the cops are coming for him, and he demands that I send him my return address so he can give me back the card. Apparently he threw out the box. He wants to know how I could do this to him, and that it was all just a big joke. I refuse, and ignore future pleas.
I speak with the cops, who now have tracked down the kid, and they speak with him and his parents. They said I can press charges, which I did.
His father emails me, and starts tearing into ME, questioning how I could possibly sell to a minor, without parents authorization. Over, and over, and over. I tell him this isn't my problem anymore, either the card is paid for, or I'll see them in court.
A couple days go by, his mother emails me, apologizing profusely, we set up a Paypal transaction for far more than the card is worth(I initially listed it at an inflated value). Done.
Speak with the cop, give the OK, case closed.
Feds email me a month or two later, saying nothing they can do, contact local police. :)
However, as individuals we can still decide that our code of ethics precludes us from involving the state in matters of petty crime, if we think the state's response may be disproportionately harsh.
If we think the state is incorrect to classify marijuana was a class I drug, the same as heroine, for example, we have every right to make our own judgement about whether to report every pot smoker to the police.
Sometimes, depending on the alleged crime, people may have very real fears that bringing in the state may have lethal consequences. In America, many black people are more hesitant to call the cops, because of excessive risks to the petty criminal, or even to themselves. Here's a homeowner who decided to call the cops who ended up shot, because the cops appeared to assume that any black man emerging from the house must be the criminal: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/2...
The point is, we could all be robots and always trust the state to deal with every issue correctly, or we could decide occasionally to trust our own morals and code of ethics, and use our own discretionary powers when deciding what to report.
Ahh, that is certainly expected. The little shit learned his BS from somewhere.
Agree 100% with how you handled it.
He should be reported to police.
"He wanted to give my my cards back but I tried for years to get rid of them so I say he can sell them and give me the BTC. Which he did and our deal was finally forfilled."
The scammer had spent $23.
Therefore, the $477 card wasn't one of the 2 cards that the scammer scammed from Haschek. It was separate, and evidence of another crime. Hence my post.
Yeah, maybe. You can never really tell. He got away with this one really, by just returning the cards. It might convince him he was the skills to keep going.
I would have told his mum.
Why am I deprioritizing police? Police really don't handle this sort of thing well. They'll likely consider it a civil matter or just won't make the stretch to pursue. It doesn't help the victim is not in the US (lower that priority some more) Sure you can log the complaint, but unless he's brazen and lots come forward about him, they likely will not bring charges. (go read up on bitscotty scamming bitcoin-otc'ers, he did it for years even after being doxxed and reported to police) I'm not saying not to report though. Make sure his details are accessible so others can follow your report.
If you want another fast track, he said he's in college so report to their administration. Without rights or due process in the way they'll probably sanction his ass immediately. Did he scam from the school's network? If so it is now a school issue and they don't like looking bad. :)
Buyer sends 1/4 of the BTC
Sellers sends 1st card
Buyer sends 1/2 of the BTC
Seller sends 2nd card
Buyer sends 1/4 of BTC
That way the risk is shared, and both parties stand to lose at most 1/4 of the value (if seller defects after receiving the first payment, or buyer defects and fails to make the last payment).
Bitcoin transfers aren't the problem here. Its transferring money to a trusted 3rd party, and then that 3rd party transferring the money forward (or back) once the items are confirmed to be transferred.
The problem then becomes dispute resolution. Even priority mail can be faked. Close the envelope with fake cards or whatever... so no matter what, dispute resolution becomes the limiting factor.
But a trusted middleman using a protocol that is hard to fake with harsh penalties on the scammers that do break the protocol is the answer.
Of course a trusted third party obviates the need for complicated schemes.
"Forum: Carding Mafia Escrow Service: Do you need to buy in safe way And Not To Get Ripped From some kid ? Come here and use CM Escrow Service Its Free.. Warning Not allowed To reply in threads .. who allowed to reply in thread just seller and buyer and escrow man anyone else will got banned for 7 days"
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Mafia run escrow service: $0.00
Knowing the little bastard will end up with a decapitated horse head in his bed if he doesn't pay up: priceless.
When I was 18 and needed to get a letter notarized, it cost me $35.
I think telling the parents and leaving it at that is probably the right thing to do. We should reserve our energy, outrage, and enforcement for the scammers who do the greatest damage. Scammers that have made millions, hired armies of lawyers, even made friends in power who have rewritten the law to favor them. The petty criminal deserves a petty punishment.
The seller claimed to be based in USA, had warehouses in Brazil and demanded that I pay via Western Union. After confirming all the details (via email). I decided to give it a shot. After sending him about $250 CAD (of the $500) he sent me a shipping code which had a description of a GTX 970. After complaining to him about it, he claimed that there was some mistake and his wearhouse in London would have it fixed and sent me another tracking number.
After a day of shipping, he emailed me claiming that he had a talk with the shipping company and they had decided to keep the laptop in escrow till I paid the entire amount (and sent him the confirmation numbers). At this point, I realized I was getting duped (if it's too good to be true, it's generally false), and canceled my payment.
A year later, both those shipping numbers still work and claim that the items are on the way.
I did try to follow up on his "company" and the shipping company, but there had been some serious work put into it (they had good SEO, support accounts, forums etc - all of which were fake btw).
I wanted to contact the local authorities, but in all honesty, no action would be taken - the scammer was located in a different country and I had nothing but an email and a name to go ahead on.
The reason I felt bad after this was not because I got scammed, but because "I" got scammed. (I was always proud that I could not get duped or fall into such scams but I had)
[1] - https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Price-For-Aple-Macboo...
I've met one or two he reminds me off and they have no shame. Doing a cry-baby act like he did at the end took nothing out of him. His true nature was revealed in his previous actions.
Came across as a parasitical, POS to me.
This is not true unless things have changed in the last few years. eBay will try to get the money back by flagging the fraudster's account. But if that account has been emptied there's nothing they can do and eBay does not refund your money from their pocket.
For the credit card comment. I don't think this is true either since I worked in retail before (family owned). Credit card companies are really quick to credit the account in case of fraud (I deal with this with my own CC every year). Thinking through this it makes sense since it doesn't come from the CC's pockets, they freeze assets in the merchant's account and forcefully refund the money from merchant's account if it was determined to be a fraudulent charge (in some cases merchant still pays the transaction fee for the CC charge).
I've never been refunded from eBay/Paypal no matter how obvious the fraud -- I've always had to do credit card chargebacks.
Never, ever fund a Paypal payment with anything but a credit card unless it's for something you can't possibly need refunded ever.
Recently I had a $20 IP camera(that price was too cheap but I was not doing my research) not arrive from China from a seemingly reputable seller with 500+ selling feedback over 2 years.
I filed a complaint with eBay and seller claimed a fake tracking number.
More interestingly, the seller had gone rogue, turning feedback private and acquiring about 100 negatives in a month.
So either the seller was hacked or had just pulled a long con.
My payment had come from Paypal balance and I got a very quick refund once I informed eBay that I wanted a refund.
He's not sorry, and is just manipulating you into going away.
Or I could be wrong and the brother is the city thug #1 :-)
I think I must have missed something. I read the whole story and I still don't see why the photos of the cards mattered.
This. I can reverse search anyone in seconds just by typing in any scrap of information I have about them into the Facebook search bar. 90% of the time there's a result. They might think they're careful with their own page, but most of them have a friend who isn't.
You sir, are legend.
I only sell stuff face to face for the reasons mentioned here.
eBay/PayPal is flakey as they side with the buyer and lost a couple of times there. I then lost as a buyer buying services using Paypal as they only help the buyer if it is a physical product. Fortunately in aggregate lost a lot less than this dude. Let alone sending stuff to some random address on the promise of some bitcoin.
The author has specifically mentioned that he's not in US and these gift cards are "USA only".
We deal with this sort of stuff all the time running cardforcoin.com. Social evidence is a great fraud deterrent.
Edit: My mistake, I reversed the payment direction. All the author needed to do was call Apple to have the cards cleared and replaced.
Imagine if you were a few days late on a credit card payment, and they started calling your relatives telling them that if they weren't paid, they would be going to the cops. That is very illegal, and in that scenario the credit card company could be sued for damages. These two scenarios have some legal equivalence - someone that is owed a debt contacts family and uses embarrassment as leverage to collect. There have been many cases where criminals have successfully sued their victims and this may be a good candidate. This blog post, which this kid's lawyer would paint as a public celebration of the damage done to his client's life, doesn't help matters.
So what he did in this case was logical, and probably even cut the kid a break, but it probably exposed him to legal liability. He should have just gone to the cops and let it play out if that was his actual intention after not being paid.
That is far too nice way to describe the issue and I would assume that even in US these are two separate issues (being late from mutually agreed payment and trying to scam someone)
There's a little concept that you may have heard of: innocent until proven guilty. No crime has been committed until a court of competent jurisdiction says it has.