At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.
We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite of the point of the US.
What if a host wanted to turn away somebody who was an avid white supremacist? This isn't the same thing as giving somebody a key to a hotel room.
EDIT: Worth pointing to another comment that cites the law: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12453577
> Those anti-discrimination laws don't apply to hosts' private homes or bedrooms.[1] Paraphrase of law: "All persons shall be entitled ..., and accommodations of any place of public accommodation,..., without discrimination ... other than ... a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent ... which is actually occupied by the proprietor ... as his residence"
One might argue that posting pictures of the interior of a residence, advertising it for rent by the night, and posting a price for such privilege is what makes a hotel a "very public business." (It's also why regulations apply to hotels.)
One might also wonder that if these properties make a hotel or B&B a public business, what's different about AirBnB rentals?
Sure enough, back in 1964 the US passed a law that defines (many/most) AirBnB rentals as places of "public accommodation":
"any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence. "
If the lessor isn't living there, it's a public lodging. (Also, it's not the lessor's "home" by virtue of the lessor not living there.)
Most other activities happening in your home, including renting out a room to a housemate, are not subject to discrimination laws.
If you don't want a particular type of person in your home, you should have that right, whether that's because you have a safety or other concern, or because you are a racist asshole.
If AirBNB wants to pretend it's a public accommodation now because discrimination affects its brand, tough. Maybe they should exert full control by building hotels in commercial districts.
1. owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units (which is commonly known as the Mrs. Murphy exemption)
2. single family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker if the private individual owner does not own more than three such single family homes at one time
3. housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members
Under federal Fair Housing law, the prohibition on discriminatory advertisements applies to all situations except the following:
Shared Housing Exemption -- If you are advertising a shared housing unit, in which tenants will be sharing a bathroom, kitchen, or other common area, you may express a preference based upon sex only. Private Club and Religious Exemptions -- A religious community or private club whose membership is not restricted based upon race, color, or national origin may restrict tenancy only to its members in a property that it owns, and may advertise to that effect. Housing for Older Persons Exemption -- As discussed below, certain complexes for elderly persons are exempt from prohibitions on familial status discrimination, including the prohibitions on discriminatory advertising.
Renting out a room to another housemate is a very different thing to listing a room for a nightly rate as a commercial transaction.
Whether that automatically means you should be governed by the same laws as a hotel is unclear, but asking whether it might be appropriate is a really important thing to do. The rules society created for hotels weren't just randomly invented rules - we wrote those laws for what we considered very good reasons to prevent certain kinds of discrimination that was actually happening and the we decided was wrong. I think there's a _very_ high chance that Airbnb hosts probably should be held to those same rules or something very similar but less directly aimed at hotels.
I agree. Hosts should do things like not operate in areas where zoning or other ordinances prohibit or require regulatory compliance for this type of activity. If hosts were operating as an actual lodging establishment, the existing legal framework would provide a solution to discrimination issues.
If Marriott tried to put a hotel in the middle of my neighborhood, which is an 2-4 family residential zone, that effort would fail. If you tried to open a conventional B&B, (there was one that operated about 6 blocks away for many years) you would need to meet certain safety standards like having appropriate fire egress (ie. fire escapes, alarms, possibly sprinklers), have appropriate parking, allow neighbors to react and provide perspective, etc.
In the case of that B&B that was in my neighborhood, they had to install fire escapes, and the neighbors requested that a fence be installed to prevent guests from using their lawn as a pathway.
I wonder if there's any legal precedents about whether a "single building" like an apartment block, with more than 5 different apartments Airbnb-ing rooms - suddenly and out of the control of any individual tenant - becomes a "place of public accommodation"?
The law seems perfectly clear to me.
As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of, or otherwise make unavailable or deny, a dwelling to any person because of race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin.
It's a typical problem of the "sharing" economy. I'm not sure the courts will agree with them, but their strategy has been similar to Uber's in that they come in, break the law (or at the very least operate in a legal grey area), then get so big that traditional regulatory systems have no way to deal with them.
But, since the government will have to do all this inspection, I guess you agree that they will have to levy a tax on AirBnB to pay for it?
So yeah, you don't have to clean as well as a hotel if you don't want, you don't have to pay the taxes as a hotel or even a regular long term rental unit if you can get away with it (thinking IRS will consider a portion of your house converted into business property and thus subject to business property gains tax when you sell the house, but not limited to this), you don't have to follow or even give notice that you don't follow ADA, on and on, because AirBnB doesn't verify any of this and it's claimed it's not their responsibility to do so; but they also don't support even a licensing program by municipalities and rental history reporting so that these municipalities could do their own verifications.
Basically if you even the playing field across the board between an AirBnB and hotel, you end up with something like an actual Bed & Breakfast (although typically without breakfast but often with access to a kitchen). All things actually being equal, even price per square foot, I'd probably pick an AirBnB, but I actively avoid it whenever possible because I think their success mainly constitutes free loading (and enabling it by property owners)
I suspect Google was trying to do the same with Google Fiber, but found the opposition (in the form of AT&T / Verizon / Comcast / TWC / Charter / Cox) was too organized and entrenched.
I don't feel Airbnb is particularly innovative on the technology side; they're just exploiting a combination of inefficiencies in government regulatory mechanisms and the naivete of inexperienced landlords.
There are plenty of horror stories about houses being trashed, etc. that professional landlords will cover with insurance (and that add to the price of a rental). By not being experienced enough to cover themselves, many renters expose themselves to a huge amount of risk. As the horror stories propagate, they will look to reduce their risk in other ways such as discriminating against renters that they have pre-existing biases toward.
Given the amateur nature of their landlords, I don't see a real way for Airbnb to stop this type of discrimination other than by providing insurance coverage -- which, of course, would significantly raise the prices of Airbnb rentals and likely force many hosts who are already operating illegally (i.e. against the terms of their leases) from the market. No insurance company in the world would be willing to underwrite a policy for damages that are already prohibited under an existing contract.
There's a world of difference between a single family letting their guest room, the runner of a "Hacker Hostel" with 12 bunks, and someone who rents 4 different properties on AirBnB but lives in another house. The laws should be formulated such that the rules for hotels also apply to the 3rd case. Such laws should definitely not apply to the 1st case. A "Hacker Hostel" is also something of an interest group, so I'm not sure what applies there.
(b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:...
(It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. Section 804 is what you quoted.)
(2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence.
So if I'm renting out my home on AirBnB, or even a full floor of a 4 family brownstone, none of this actually applies to me.
It pretty clearly applies to lots of uses of AirBnB, even if arguably not all. But I think there's a pretty good case that it applies to AirBnB use without exception, simply because using AirBnB seems to make it applicable, as discussed below.
> Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:...
(Note that lots of AirBnB rentals of single-family homes are not by the owner, and thus not within this exception even before considering the limitations on the exception.)
> (It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. [...])
And you shouldn't have, because the part that you snipped is all limitations on the part of the you quoted, including the most important one: "Provided further, That after December 31, 1969, the sale or rental of any such single-family house shall be excepted from the application of this subchapter only if such house is sold or rented (A) without the use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings, or of any employee or agent of any such broker, agent, salesman, or person and (B) without the publication, posting or mailing, after notice, of any advertisement or written notice in violation of section 804(c) of this title; [...]"
The use of a service like AirBnB would seem to place a rental act squarely within this limitation, and thus outside of the exception.
I don't think it would be. The extra verbiage about a "broker/agent" is more of a secondary definition to help the law pin down properties that are "commercial". In other words, if you're paying the high price of contracting a broker, you're 99.99% likely not to be renting out a personal bedroom.
The homeowner's use of Airbnb is more analogous to listing in the "newspaper classifieds" rather than contracting a human broker.
As far as I can tell, very few people including states' general attorneys or Federal courts interpret Airbnb's situation as a broker service that is therefore subject to those limitations.
No, its not. Its an express limitation on the applicability of the homeowner exception, and applies to any use of any rental (or sale) services of a broker, agent, or person in the business of renting (or selling) real estate in support of a discriminatory rental, after December 31, 1969.
Its only legal (since 1970) under the federal fair housing act to discriminate, even as a homeowner renting their own home, if the rental is arranged without the use of some commercial rental-arrangement service.
(And even them it may be illegal under state fair housing laws.)
> The homeowner's use of Airbnb is more analogous to listing in the "newspaper classifieds" rather than contracting a human broker.
That's certainly the argument a discriminating owner using AirBnB (or possible AirBnB themselves) would try to make, but AirBnB's financial and substantive involvement in the transaction is very different than that of a hands-off listing service like a newspaper classified section, so I don't think that argument would fly. If AirBnB actually acted like a newspaper classified service, that argument might be valid, but that's not what AirBnB does (if we were talking, instead, about Craigslist, that would be a good argument.)
To be clear, my response was not disagreeing with this part.
Except that AirBnB:
- collects money and acts as a financial intermediary
- provides some measure of insurance to both sides of the transaction
- provides some measure of support before/during/after a stay
- more?
Basically, it's nothing like a newspaper classified.
(b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to-- (1)[...everything you quoted...], or (2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence.
Since (2) applies to AirBnB, it doesn't matter if (1) does because the exception is (1) || (2).
Volokh (a very good law blog) has blogged on this topic a while back, also useful to read: http://volokh.com/2012/02/08/does-the-right-to-choose-a-room... http://volokh.com/2010/11/05/federal-government-acknowledges...
Apparently people also have a constitutional right to choose "intimate associations", which includes who you live with. However, you can't advertise that you'll do this.
I'm pretty sure I'm not, at least in the way you are suggesting.
> Since (2) applies to AirBnB
(As noted previously, neither 1 nor 2 applies to many uses of AirBnB, where the person offering the rental isn't the property owner but is instead a tenant; but, that aside...)
I was actually responding to your suggestion that (1) applied to AirBnB -- or, more precisely, to a homeowner renting their home out via AirBnB; I was not responding to your argument that (2) applies to a AirBnB -- or, more precisely, to rentals of units or rooms by owners of homes for multiple (but not more than four) families living independently while the owner occupies some part of it (which, again, doesn't apply to lots of AirBnB rentals, including by-owner rentals.)
There are, I will acknowledge, a subset of AirBnB transactions which would fall within the exception of (2) from federal fair housing laws (which doesn't, actually, mean they'd be legal everywhere in the US; many states have much substantially narrower exceptions to state fair housing rules than exist in federal fair housing law.)
> Volokh (a very good law blog)
Volokh is probably the best right-libertarian law blog there is, yes.
> has blogged on this topic a while back
Maybe, but neither of the links you provide are "on this topic", (to wit, the legality of discriminatory renting via a commercial intermediary like AirBnB.) Both are regarding discriminatory listings via hands-off listing venues, which is a very different issue.
Maybe, but neither of the links you provide are "on this topic", (to wit, the legality of discriminatory renting via a commercial intermediary like AirBnB.) Both are regarding discriminatory listings via hands-off listing venues, which is a very different issue.
The point is the referenced constitutional right to "intimate associations", and you have not established that the use of AirBnB somehow nullifies this constitutional right.
If you are renting your home (and not merely some portion of it), you aren't occupying at the time you are renting rooms or units in it, so (2) doesn't apply; (1) might, were it not for the limitations in (1). There would be no point in quoting (1) at all unless you intended to invoke it, and your hypothetical doesn't make sense unless you intended to invoke both the portion of (1) you quoted and (2).
> The point is the referenced constitutional right to "intimate associations",
The existence of that right is not what is in controversy here; whether it extends to the use of an actively-involved commercial intermediary like AirBnB, is. Volokh's posts that you referenced are not germane to the point actually in controversy.
> and you have not established that the use of AirBnB somehow nullifies this constitutional right.
And you haven't established that it extends to the situation at issue; that's the point in controversy. But what either of us has or has not established is irrelevant to the point that the Volokh Conspiracy posts you referenced aren't even relevant to the point in controversy.
Certainly if I rented part of a duplex where I lived in the other half, #2 applies. #2 continues to apply even while I'm at work, if I go out to dinner, or go on vacation.
You're not the first person who has tried to falsely claim residence at a property, it's a very common way to commit tax fraud by claiming homestead exemptions. The courts won't even entertain this sham for a single second.
If I buy another structure and AirBnB out that place, it's equally clear that I don't.
Aren't a large portion of listings from hosts who aren't renting out part of their own residence? For all of them, the law would apply.
Where "large" means "more than one". And not always that. If they own two, live in one but lease the other they're not allowed to discriminate on protected characteristics.
The majority of recent uses of the term "white supremacist" make me cringe. It's mostly propaganda: A deliberate emotional attack often based on a false equivalence. In any case, the impression I have as a frequent AirBnB user is that most AirBnB owners aren't interested in renting on the basis of "race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin." Rather, they are most interested in education level, socioeconomic status, and manners as a proxy for risk. They just want to determine how likely the potential guests are to cause an out-sized expense in time, treasure, and emotional energy.
Not letting people exercise such judgement is effectively creating a privileged group on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin. (EDIT: However, I would only reserve such leeway for people renting out a part of their own residence. People who own or have leases on a large number of rooms/properties renting on AirBnB should have to abide by such laws, as they are basically in the hotel business, and are covered by the applicable laws. Also, their increased transaction volume makes such laws enforceable, whereas a genuine single family on AirBnB would often not have such volume. Equating these different classes of AirBnB user would be a False Equivalence.)
And even if we remove all racial characteristics from the application, judging by socioeconomic status is defacto racial discrimination because of the correlation between status and race.
And even if there were no correlation between socioeconomic status and race, it still seems wrong to discriminate against a poor person even if, on average, poor people cause more problems for the landlord.
If you're "playing the odds" by using race as a proxy for socioeconomic status, then this is wrong. It's also a pretty poor proxy, in my experience. What about our judgements about people's judgements? (Meta-judgements.) If you're equating making a factual determination about socioeconomic status with racial discrimination, then you are using the same sort of statistical proxy you're arguing against!
And even if there were no correlation between socioeconomic status and race, it still seems wrong to discriminate against a poor person even if, on average, poor people cause more problems for the landlord.
Really, socioeconomic status is a proxy for behavior and ability to pay. Because of its rating system, AirBnB can function as a meritocracy. The fact that it has an effective rating system is a competitive advantage. Provided they are not absolutely locked out, it seems feasible for a poor person to earn a good rating in such a meritocratic system.
If AirBnB wants to further social justice, then it should make the meritocracy of the ratings fairer, instead of denying its utility to hosts. The former increases justice. The latter is using market power to force hosts into behaving how you want. You don't win hearts and minds by forcing people to do things. You win them by facilitating their voluntary transactions with all different kinds of people. (I've seen this first hand. I saw one of my classmates go from being a homophobe to being the best friend of a gay activist, by bonding over soap operas.)
That's pretty much the basis for AirBnb's existence.
Freedom is a relative thing. Here we have AirBnB's freedom to not want racist hosts vs white supremacist's freedom to use AirBnB. The only freedom the ideal of USA is supposed to grant you is freedom from too much government meddling.
Really? Which amendment is that one?
There are a few prominent restrictions on particular kinds of government meddling in the US. This by no means generalizes to the rest of it.
Government meddling in that in this case is forcing people to do something they are uncomfortable with simply because they paid money while simultaneously running the risk of legal action if at any point you want to abort the transaction.
The most basic example is akin to forcing somebody to sign a contract without knowing who they are signing it with.
If complying with anti-discrimination law is a problem for you, you should generally not be in this line of business.
Here's one of their maps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#/media/File:Home_Own...
Separating whites from colored was also explicit government policy. It was called Jim Crow. We never tried "this kind of thing".
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/links/misclink/examples/homepa...
The law was actually far more intrusive back then than it is today. For example, you might be shocked to discover that Jim Crow laws actually mandated discrimination in sexual relationships!
The closest we've come to trying this kind of thing is the present day, where at least sexual relationships have been deregulated. (This one is a biggie for me, I discriminate pretty strongly against white women and think the government should not restrict my freedom in that way.)
A business that you can walk into off the street should ALMOST never be able to discriminate.
I say almost in both cases because absolutes are the tools by which rules are abused.
The Tenth:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Of course this is a dead letter because of a misinterpretation of the Commerce Clause, but there it is. If the Constitution didn't literally give the federal government a power, it doesn't have that power.
[EDIT:] to avoid confusion, the First is my favorite.
People who are using AirBnB to rent space in their homes will also have the freedom to stop doing so if they are no longer comfortable losing any say regarding who they are willing to let stay.
If anything, AirBnB is really opening the door for a competitor who totally defers to the property owner to cut into their market share.
Well, yeah, neo-nazis. But that's a pretty niche market and AirBnB only works if they are big enough to make the two sided market work.
I really think US is now getting to a completely different extreme - why should be whites and men so severely disadvantaged? You are getting to a point that when you don't enthusiastically approve of whatever a SJW says, you are instantly labeled an enemy.
Go and watch video how Turks in some remote city were kicking out Korean tourists - that's a problem you should focus on if you want to make the world a better place. First world problems...
Where, exactly, would one be able to objectively measure this disadvantage using published data?
You're attributing to me emotions I did not express. Obviously, because I didn't offer an opinion on anything in my question.
>There are now many women-only places/clubs but the same is denied to men in the US.
This is demonstrably false, and can be disproved with Google in seconds.
But I'll surmise you aren't all that concerned with the existence of women's social clubs as a counterpoint to men's social clubs. I'll give the benefit of the doubt and guess that your concerns are likely about something more substantive.
I was just asking where one can objectively measure the severe disadvantage of white men in America. A disadvantage so profound surely would be obvious in data of education, political power, wealth, or employment, or the like.
Your contention is at odds with what I would have guessed based on having lived my life in America. So: what publicly-available data set would you use to exhibit this severe disadvantage?
Anyway, possible interesting stats for your further research:
- average/median earning of single women in their 20s comparing to the same group of men in officially recognized fields (no sugar daddy incomes etc.)
- ratio of female/male university graduates
- number of male-only clubs forced to close or allow female participation comparing to the number of female-only clubs
Frankly, I couldn't care less about men-/women-only clubs, I just don't understand why former are scorned upon and latter are celebrated. I come from a part of Europe that was pretty equal for a long time so seeing this happening seems extreme to me.
This may explain a lot. Perhaps our current media exports are offering a misleading perception. I would suggest you look at the public data, as it might be a better basis for forming conclusions. I would wager a beer that actual data (NB: or any time spent in pretty much any corridor of power in America) will not support the conclusion that white men in America are disadvantaged relative to other groups.
Also: we don't actually have all that many social clubs here; they are in some ways a relic from the past. I would suggest they are opening up to black people and women as a result of self-interested response to market forces. The types of clubs that denied admission to black people until well into the 1990s aren't the types of clubs that cave because Huffington Post ran an unflattering piece.
So, exactly where it is now?
I know it's super popular in regressive circles to think that GitHub is somehow failing because fffffemninisms, but it's also untrue.
> I really think US is now getting to a completely different extreme - why should be whites and men so severely disadvantaged?
We're not. Claims to the contrary are indicative of self-adopted persecution complexes and mistaken beliefs in zero-sum sociology. Source: straight white male in one of the most liberal parts of the United States and doing just fine.
You are probably a high-income white male. Now imagine how your life would be were you a low-income white male with a dadbod-shape. Not everyone is as lucky as we are (for the record, I am affluent, very tall, athletic, popular amongst girls) - I see plenty of these problems amongst my less lucky friends and frankly I reject this stupid game of taking care only of myself and not helping people around me. I know this is un-american, but I couldn't care less.
It's mostly about socioeconomic status. The overarching problem is the conflation of things like race with socioeconomic status. Poor white males being conflated with affluent white males is basically a part of the same phenomenon as poor black males being conflated with affluent black males. The former results in poor white males being discriminated against. The latter results in "driving while black" or my ex girlfriend's devout uncle and his well behaved sons being treated like drug dealers by the local police.
I'm not saying poor people of one color have it better or worse than poor people of another color. (And for the record, affluent whites still can have it much better than affluent people of color, depending on context.) The whole problem is the use of race as a proxy for socioeconomic status, which creates an uneven playing field -- which creates social injustice. Let's be aware of this and not contribute to it.
So if our society mistreats two groups, only the group that gets treated worst counts? No. Suckiness based on discrimination is bad, period. It's still sucks, even if you're affluent, actually. It's this constant background corrosive.
How much interaction do you have with the justice system? It's no picnic being poor and dealing with them. How much do you deal with the police? It's no picnic being poor and dealing with police you don't know. Organizations across society are crappy to the socioeconomic disadvantaged, period. Heck, even employment is crappy to the socioeconomic disadvantaged!
The thing to watch out for in the struggle for social justice across history: Letting yourself create a scapegoat. Don't let some sort of salient indelible marker become a proxy for who someone really is as a human being. That's the root cause of the problem in the first place! Just as this goes for the fallacies of "blacks being criminals" or "Asians being good at math" or "Jewish people being business sharks" it also goes for white men being angry "supremacists."
Nobody should be disadvantaged; it doesn't matter what the color of your skin is. If you look around society, such as SV companies, Congress, on TV, in college, on Wall Street, or any other measure, you'll see a lot of white guys doing very well; it's been that way for hundreds of years. No research I know of shows white men having trouble getting Airbnb rooms, I've never seen it mentioned, and I'd be pretty surprised. Factually, it's obvious, very well-established, and there is a long history regarding what groups are disadvantaged. We should do something about it.
Finally, I hope that in a free society I can disagree with your comment without being preemptively attacked and my behavior criticized.
What I think you are talking about and see is more fight for belonging to the upper echelon of society, the ones that seem to make decisions affecting all of us. Well, news for you, vast majority of whites don't belong there. If you also want to be more nasty, i.e. singling out Jews, a historically popular scapegoat nation, another news for you - most of them are poor and uneducated, hence disadvantaged. Simply the goal of all these fights is power and nowadays equality turned into another mean how to acquire power, causing yet another slew of injustices, sadly.
That doesn't mean there is no other suffering in the world; that begs the question. It means these groups face much greater problems, your unsubstantiated claims notwithstanding. Given the overwhelming evidence, why wouldn't you want to do something about it?
Look, a few thousands years ago the dominant culture were Egyptian, Babylonian etc. Then there was China, Aztecs, India, Rome, Islam, then enlightened Europe. All those older cultures became zombies on self-inflicted wounds when they couldn't cope with their evolutionary advancement anymore, their mental framework got stale, they probably overly indulged in pleasures their technology allowed them without caring about progress and justice and they went from advanced to weak, allowing themselves to be conquered easily.
Here we are at a wonderful place in history when everyone can seemingly have their words heard. We are also marching towards post-scarcity economy and a single smartphone has a larger computing power than the whole humanity had when we launched into the space. More than ever disadvantaged groups have their say. The previously dominant, white culture, allowed that, working on abolishing slavery, awful crimes and horrible warts plaguing all previous cultures. Why are you still feeling offended? So many people worked so hard on bringing the concept of justice to everyone. Should their successors be persecuted for whatever wrongs you historically feel? How many of those wrongs were self-inflicted by your own culture? When you compare your life in the US, would you exchange it for your native one? Would you apologize to all victims of your ancestors' horrible acts?
When there are some things causing injustice, they should be disbanded, and not new ones erected as a "payback". Please get it out of your system, we would love to see you cooperating on a just world.
I don't divide the world into groups of people based on skin color, and then assign group achievements and faults as if they are a team, and imagine there is some competition or racial Olympics. That premise is the root of the problem. I see individuals and mutual benefit when they do better, not a zero sum competition. The fact - not speculation - is that many of those individuals are suffering from racism.
Arguably, the central point of the US was exactly to prevent people in positions of relative power from making certain decisions that others with less individual power disagreed with; perhaps the central debate between the modern left and modern right in the US is whether that generalizes from the formal political positions of relative power that were salient at the time of founding to economic positions of relative power (the position of the modern left) or whether the restrictions should be limited to only the domain of formal political power and that the exercise of economic power should be unconstrained (the position of the modern right.)
A lot of people hosting through Airbnb shouldn't be.
We tried it the other way, and all the black people ended up cordoned into North Lawndale.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...
As a society, we decided to amend the social contract to remedy this. You can choose who to have in your house based on any criteria you like. You cannot choose who to rent to on the same terms.
Where in the social contract is this clause? I can't find it.
"It's in the social contract" is the ultimate weasel appeal. You're citing the authority of an imaginary document that, miraculously, contains whatever arbitrary moral edicts the person who invokes it happens to agree with.
Transactions should be voluntary. People should not be forced to do business against their will. Whoever "we" is in your post, I'm not part of it, because I have a moral objection to slavery (I.e. Involuntary labor).
Not that what AirBNB is doing constitutes involuntary labor; they're a private business and can set whatever terms they want for using their platform, in accordance with the principles I've outlined. I'm just saying that forcing homeowners to take in people they don't want to is sub-optimal and alienating for homeowners.
Airbnb has found (accidentally) an unforeseen loophole in the law, where a practice that had only a marginal impact on the distribution of housing is on track to make a more significant impact. They know as well as anyone else that the law is going to catch up, unless they keep human nature from using Airbnb as a vector to re-segregate a big chunk of the housing market.
Certain types of discrimination are illegal since then. Others are not. That's the point being debated here.
How exactly this is an example that proves necessity of government regulating private rentals?
This isn't about your home; this is about your use of your home as a capital asset. You can allow into your home anyone you choose to and bar anyone you choose to. But as a society we have agreed that we--through our government--most certainly have a stake in making sure that you treat others equitably in your business transactions, and that that use of your home as a capital asset in a business transaction means you forego other rights in the process.
Let's go for the obvious example; Jewish business owners should be forced to do business with neo-nazis?
But Jewish business owners routinely do business with them anyways.
So, currently, political affiliation is not a protected class, but it is considered a gray area by many.
Many may feel that political affiliation should be considered a protected class, however, if it becomes one, would that mean that Nazism is now protected?
Or coming at it from the other angle, as it stands, a religious extremist who believes that all members of a particular race/religion/orientation/etc should be put to death is currently protected. Why is that protected but Nazism not? Or does the protection become void as soon as you use it negatively towards another protected class? I'm genuinely asking.
Even though Nazism isn’t technically a religion, it seems very similar to religious extremism in many ways.
The comparison between Nazism and discrimination against black people is pretty creepy, though.
The experience of black people on Airbnb is: "Here is an amazing looking listing. I'm psyched to see if it's available for my trip. Click. Oh! It is available! How excellent. I'll plan accordingly." Then, a few hours later, when the owner has noticed the applicant's African American sounding name, the reservation is rescinded. It happens repeatedly, and there's nothing the renter can do about it.
The experience of the neo-Nazi is roughly the same, except the first time it happens they take the swastika out of their profile picture and from then on everything works peachy for them.
That's not being a protected class (which is a statutory issue), or even being a Con-law suspect or quasi-suspect class, that's simply application of the 1st Amendment (incorporated by the 14th). Its a whole different, unrelated area of protection.
> The experience of the neo-Nazi is roughly the same, except the first time it happens they take the swastika out of their profile picture and from then on everything works peachy for them.
Which pretty much also works for many victims of religious discrimination, but even so religion is (and political affiliation, Nazi or otherwise, is not) a protected class under fair housing law. So, insofar as its a difference between "Nazis" and "blacks", its a difference largely orthogonal to the issue of protected class status under fair housing laws.
That's a straightforward First Amendment issue.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You can't prohibit neo-Nazis from peaceably assembling. You can't prohibit people wearing purple shirts from peaceably assembling. In neither case does that make neo-Nazis nor purple-shirt-wearers a protected class.
As tptacek notes, in many ways Nazism is protected through other means. But to directly answer your question, I think the answer is a firm maybe. Because it depends on whether Nazism is recognized as a political affiliation. Which means that that question, too, needs to be settled. (Maybe it is. I don't know.)
That said, I don't think political affiliation should be a protected class (it's something that isn't intrinsic in the way that race or gender identity is and, as tptacek mentioned, can be "taken off" at will) and I don't think it ever practically could be one so I don't think about it that often. Similarly, I also don't really think religious affiliation should be, except that in a practical sense it serves as a shield to protect minority groups as it currently stands so I don't mind the kluge.
> Or does the protection become void as soon as you use it negatively towards another protected class?
I am unclear on the interrelations that you posit, though I just asked a con-law friend for his take and (according to him) it depends on whether or not it is a place of "public accommodation"--retail stores, service businesses, educational institutions. In such a case, yes, it is not lawful to refuse to serve that customer.
Why? If someone chooses to discriminate, why not let them suffer the consequences of lost potential revenue naturally?
It gives people who don't discriminate a chance to step in and gain market share.
It reminds me of the story of the bakery who wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay couple. If I owned a bakery, I would put up a sign the next day saying "we will happily make cakes for gay couples".
Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.
And, historically and into the present, there are cultural incentives (racist-ass racism) and economic incentives (risk aversion) to make that happen.
The market will and does fail in the face of bigotry and discrimination; we've seen it from redlining to, well, now. Addressing market failures is the government's job.
Social stigma might blunt these effects but it's unlikely to eliminate them any time soon. I bet a lot of the people who (effectively) refuse to rent to black people don't think they're the slightest bit biased against black people. They're not keeping track of their individual decisions about rental applicants, and they can easily let their brains fill in the blanks to tell them there were all sorts of negative signals they picked up on when declining reservations.
You can be optimistic all you like that we'll "eventually get there" (I'm not) but optimism doesn't do much for people whose rights are being infringed today.
The next step is that the discriminating companies are out-competed and go out of business, leaving only non-discriminating companies. Conclusion: that's why there are no discriminating companies left!
This is a nice thought, but it barely works in theory and I've never seen it work in practice. That the consequent isn't observed regularly should tell you something about the assumptions we started with.
Depending on how bad the problem is you could end up with ghettos and other nasty things because of people who aren't able to get any sort of service.
I'd stay away from these issues on HN unless we really have something valuable and new to add. I'll just say that there's another side to this and many strongly disagree with this notion. To sum it up and just put both sides out there (hopefully not starting a debate), people facing widespread discrimination, unable to get jobs, housing, health care, and even dinner and hotel rooms are not free, but oppressed. Also, it's long been part of US history, it's not a new trend. Anti-discrimination laws are one example.
People can do all sorts of bad things; they can mentally abuse their children, they can gamble away all their family's assets, cheat their co-workers and customers, they can hate and do many other things to ruin their lives, their family's, their neighbor's, their country's and the world's. People have the right to turn the U.S. into a broken state like Somalia. People have a long history of causing death, destruction, and pain to each other; I think that amounts to the same point in your comment, and I agree it's irrefutable.
But who cares what I can do? Once we mature past childhood, it's meaningless; it doesn't inform our decisions. The question is not what can we do - who wants to do 99.9% of those things? - but what could we be doing? What are our obligations to our families, our neighbors, our societies and the world? What do we care about? What do we do well, where are we causing harm, and how can we do better?
Saying we can be racist - well of course. But it distracts from the real questions: What harm is being done? There is very well-established, serious widespread harm being done to tens of millions of people because of racism; it's gone on for generations. What can we do to make it better?
In most of the world, people (or at least some leaders) have chosen poverty, ignorance, and violence over liberty, and justice. In the U.S., people chose to do better - they could have chosen otherwise; I hope they continue to do so.
Obviously government cannot stop discrimination just as it cannot stop murder, theft, etc. But it can dramatically reduce it by imposing the proper social norms.
Those unalienable rights you are born with as outlined in the bill of rights.
It's not to overcome the failings of humanity (an impossible task if ever there was one).
It's morally wrong to use threats of government violence to dictate how an individual uses their private property.
Violence is only an acceptable response in cases when a person initiates a violation of another's person or property.
Because I don't have a right to dictate how other people use their person and property, except to prevent them from violating my person or property.
Person A says, "I don't have a right to dictate how other people use their person and property, except to prevent them from violating my person or property"
Person B says, "I don't have a right to dictate how other people use their person and property, except to prevent them from violating my person or property or my right to be treated equally".
How do I know who is correct?
It's not a viable principle to base a justice system on. It will inevitably lead to politics being turned into a venue through which groups fight to expand their power at the expense of others. This is hugely wasteful.
I haven't seen evidence that private discrimination leads to revolution.
History is filled with examples of laws being passed to mandate segregation, and to discriminate against minorities, because the authorities were concerned about the fact that in the absence of such intervention, the majority demographic was mixing with a minority group through marriage and commerce.
An important question is, why would anyone desire to see others oppressed and abused, that they would defend the power to do it?
You do not have a right to a product or service (like healthcare), or a job, that someone else provides. You're only entitled to your life, liberty and property. As soon as you assume a right to things others produce, you support the violation of their life, liberty and/or property.
>An important question is, why would anyone desire to see others oppressed and abused, that they would defend the power to do it?
Private discrimination is not oppression. Using government violence to prevent someone from discriminating is oppression.
Private discrimination is something we all engage in, every day. What you're arguing for is prohibiting certain types of discrimination, in certain areas of private life. For instance, prohibiting racial discrimination but not ideological discrimination, and in one's business interactions, and not sexual interactions.
The whole concept of prohibiting private discrimination is wrong, as it presumes we do not have a total right to determine who we associate and do business with.
Currently race and sex are nono's but religion and politics is ok.
Why should I face discrimination for my appearance when trying to get laid?
Surely the government should ban women and men from turning me down for sex because I'm not attractive.
Another being(assuming we all agree on what a failing is) the rights you need to violate to attempt(and fail, because it will fail) to address that failing.
Better to leave people to themselves than inflict certain misery in a misguided attempt to remould mankind in your own image.
Then maybe the government should tell you who you can have sex with an who not to?
It thought you people wanted the government out of your bedroom?
Telling people who people can have in their homes and not is fascist. These are not commercial businesses.
If you want to make a law stating that any flat rented out on an going basis constitutes a 'business' - and subject to regular rules - that's fine. But if they are homes - no way.
Until you have a little business in that home and are now refusing paying customers.
https://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA#roommates
Under federal Fair Housing law, the prohibition on discriminatory advertisements applies to all situations except the following:
Shared Housing Exemption -- If you are advertising a shared housing unit, in which tenants will be sharing a bathroom, kitchen, or other common area, you may express a preference based upon sex only. Private Club and Religious Exemptions -- A religious community or private club whose membership is not restricted based upon race, color, or national origin may restrict tenancy only to its members in a property that it owns, and may advertise to that effect. Housing for Older Persons Exemption -- As discussed below, certain complexes for elderly persons are exempt from prohibitions on familial status discrimination, including the prohibitions on discriminatory advertising.
Getting a roommate is different. You can still be a piece of garbage and discriminate, but that's your business.
No.
I'd argue it changes when you have a flat that is rented out on a near full time basis to others, i.e. 'a business'.
Crazy, I know, but that's the world most wanted.
Enough with this rubbish - your comment is that of the totalitarian.
Homes are not businesses, and people have a right to decide who they let it - and not.
It's not a simplistic decision, and there are probably many factors. Personally - if someone looked like a scruffy bum, I don't think I'd want them renting my AirBnB if I had a place. Frankly, I don't care if it's 'discriminatory'.
More importantly - shutting down the discussion with political y loaded ideology is just wrong. These are nuanced issues, you don't get to win by saying the word 'racist'.
Doesn't that describe every rule ever? I don't think the point of the US was to be lawless.
1.) Airbnb is still a new concept to a lot of people. Hosts need to time to work with a guest to make sure they know how the arrangement is suppose to work. Airbnb use to have a 'respond within 24 hrs rule' which got changed to a 'accept booking within 24hrs rule'. That change gave me little time to work with guests (especially first timers). I can't tell you how many times first-timers ask me questions as if i were hotel, "do you mind if i check in at 2am after my international flight gets in?" No.
2.) Removing pictures increases anonymity for guest and risks for hosts. Transparency is great for building trust. I could usually tell if a guest was going to good by the amount of information they shared about themselves. I hated it when first-time guest would reach out with zero information about themselves or a picture. It's like guests want to know everything about me, but they get to hide behind a veil of secrecy.
3.) Increasing the use of "instant-book" favors professionals as opposed to part-time home-sharers. Since I rented out my entire personal apt during work trips (never did room shares), I wanted to be damn sure a guest would be respectful of my home, so I needed to work with them (see #1). However, people who have a full-time airbnb place don't really care as much. They have a bunch of cheap ikea furniture and no personal belongings to worry about. This is in sharp contrast to what Airbnb claims to be, especially in SF. Since I have more to care about and more risk, the new policies do not work for me.
4.) Hosts aren't always forth coming with information NOR do they read the fine print before booking. I can't tell you how many people expected me to check them in at 2am, have an elevator, child proof my apartment, allow for dogs, and the list goes on and on. Great, now I've got to deal with people who don't bother to follow the rules.
Look, I realize I have a lot of requirements, and you might say "well maybe I shouldn't be airbnb-ing" But my apartment was great for the right person and I was happy to share it. And I was almost always able to find the right person. I think Airbnb is great when its about finding the right place for the right person. I'm sorry that everyplace can be right for everyone. My apt is not a "one-size-fits-all" hotel and since they are forcing me to be one, I am no longer using the service.
I think it's unreasonable to say that all home-sharers must act like hotels.
First, Airbnb hosts are not "sharing" their homes. They're renting them out for financial profits.
Second, the name is literally Airbnb, as in "Bed and Breakfast". Most B&Bs don't get anything close to that amount of information, and it's illegal for them to discriminate on the basis of protected classes, just like hotels.
Respectfully, I disagree. If you allow someone to stay in the home you live in while you're away, to sleep in your bed, to cook in your kitchen, drink from your cups, and so on, you are most definitely sharing your home. It doesn't matter if you profit or not for that to be true.
I know a lot of Airbnb hosts aren't doing this. They're renting out places they never lived in. There's a big difference.
I, personally, am not arguing that discrimination isn't wrong (though some other threads have clarified the actual legality). I'm just saying that the methods Airbnb has chosen to prevent said discrimination also make it impossible for me to host and those methods are shaky at best.
- book a flight,
- buy bread or milk, or
- get a girl friend
you discrimate in favor of one and against all others.
Subjective discrimination is the only way to choose, discrimination is the sure consequence of your every choice.
That's your choice. No one made you.
"Why should we lump hotels and my apt into the same bucket? They are different types of businesses"
They really aren't. They provide the same service.
"I think it's unreasonable to say that all home-sharers must act like hotels."
I don't. Especially with regards to anti-discrimination laws.
Before arriving in some foreign place I want to know if the host is reliable. The host wants to know if they can trust me to be in their home. Ratings are helpful but no substitute for finding out what type of person you're dealing with. Even though I'm a pretty private person I prefer connecting with hosts on social media beforehand. I definitely want a voice call, even though all the expectation setting needs to be in writing on airbnb.
Both sides need to show themselves and accept being judged. Hosts need to be able to refuse without needing to justify their decisions. Otherwise there can never be enough trust to share valuable properties.
I only spoke on the phone with one guest before hand and we ended up connecting very well. Her and her daughter were first timers and I walked them through the whole process. Her feedback said something like she considers me family now haha
Airbnb has basically stripped that ability away from me. So thanks Airbnb. I'll stop being the racist you've incorrectly accused me of being.
/oh and for the record, I am Latino/Native American.
If AirBnB is going to get big, they need to have anti-discrimination policies. Without such policies, the states and federal government will sue them into oblivion--whether any laws were actually broken or not. Civil rights groups will boycott AirBnB and any TV network that carries their advertising. The list of hurts goes on and on.
So there is no future for hosts like you who want to vet people. Vetting allows too much room for all sorts of unsavory discrimination. More importantly for AirBnB though, vetting gets in the way of AirBnB making money and competing with hotel chains.
This company dreams of being the "Uber of hotels." You're in their way. You're like the old-timey Lyft driver who wanted people riding in front and doing the fist bump. That's over.
The sort of hosting you want to do is going to have to route through some informal mechanism, like an email list or word of mouth or some web forum, or maybe a random Facebook group. It's incompatible with a Bigcorp that wants to make money, lots of money.
Yeup. Airbnb told me to "go fuck myself" a long time ago. It was fun well it lasted I suppose.
Brilliantly written comment I must say. Everything you said was spot on.
How can I subscribe to your newsletter?
It's a lot easier to say, "buy a second home or apt and make some money renting it out" than it is to say "make some money by letting a stranger go through all your personal shit. And if you don't, you're racist"
"Home sharing" is over. Airbnb is all about being a broker for unlicensed mini-hotels now.
Craigslist's sublet/temporary section is a pretty good place for this. I've found it works pretty well being able to rent a place for a few weeks while the owner is out of town/country. Obviously unlike AirBnB there is no false pretense of security, but that's fair enough seeing as how you (as owner/lessor) have the greatest incentive to look after that.
Why do AirBnB hosts need all this when VRBO hosts did not?
In fact I've usually had to try to negotiate with them over the phone as they suddenly jack up the price to twice what they advertised, or tell me that they made a mistake in the listing and they weren't actually available.
I don't even know why; I'm not part of any class that would usually be discriminated against. Maybe I sound young on the phone.
It's worse than that for Airbnb, I think. If they take too active a role in deciding who gets to stay it gets much harder for them to plausibly argue that they are not the entity that should be responsible for complying with zoning regulations and tax regulations and any other regulations that apply to hotels located where the Airbnb hosts are located.
The question comes... is that an established line that they can stop just short of OR is that a great big grey zone that will require a lawsuit to better define?
You don't need a perfect solution in order to do something. They can improve the situation. And also it's important that they make clear it's unacceptable and take action: It's like bullying; people passively watching send the message that the behavior is socially permitted. People are hard wired to follow social norms.
> they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.
Discrimination isn't forever. Protestants and Catholics, not to mention Irish and Italians, and many others used to riot against each other in the U.S. When John F Kennedy, a Catholic, was elected President it was actually a big deal. Now nobody even notices when a Mormon runs. Look at discrimination against women, Jews, LGBTQ, and many others. It takes too long, but the history is very optimistic.
I even hear that most American voters voted for a black man - twice - only a generation after he wouldn't have been allowed to even sleep in a hotel in much of the country. (Could he get an Airbnb room now, if he weren't recognized? I sure don't want to go back to those days.)
If the data shows that there is no correlation, they can prove hosts have no reason to let their prejudices get in the way of making more money hosting more people.
If data does show a correlation, don't hosts have good reason to discriminate, just as insurers do (against say, age)?
... Right.
Also, note that health insurer discrimination is the exception, rather then the norm (And it surprises me that it is even legal).
Men are statistically more likely to commit violent crimes than women, and 100% of crime is committed by humans. Would you suggest that "men" and "humans" as classes should be discriminated against as a result?
What if, statistically, there were some weird factor, like the shape of ears, that correlated more strongly with the quality of a guest. Would you base your hosting decisions on that?
You don't think it too neat and simplistic that, with race being something that speaks to the deepest prejudices in people, "data" has been found and collected that appears to support such prejudices?
Statistically, poor people might be a net drain on economy. Do you suggest we get rid of them?
This is not true; 100% of crimes are committed by persons, but both natural persons (humans) and juridical persons (corporations, etc.) commit crimes, and its possible for the latter to commit a crime when none of the individual owners or agents are, as individuals, guilty of a crime.
> Would you suggest that "men" and "humans" as classes should be discriminated against as a result?
But, the latter kind of discrimination is the reason that the claim about humans committing 100% of crime is approximately (that is, but for crimes by juridical persons) true -- only humans commit crimes because acts are only criminal when committed by humans, so discrimination against humans is the reason for rather than a response to the condition you identify.
Yes, if you can sell a night's stay for the same price to a houseplant as you can to a human, it would seem wisest to board the houseplant at every opportunity.
> What if, statistically, there were some weird factor...
I would like an AI to make all my booking picks for me, but not one that aims to maximize diversity or exclusivity, simply one that minimizes risk. If it turned out the AI found a strong correlation with ear shape and risk, or favorite color and risk, that would be just fine, as long as it is correct.
I have no such AI, all I have are some mere heuristics gathered from the work of actuarial scientists (Insurers). So if a twenty-something male and a fifty-something female both request the same night, why wouldn't I choose the older female every single time?
(Note that I am discriminating against my very own demographic, not that my feelings play any part in this, I'm simply attempting to minimize risk when booking, when there's an option to do so.)
Yes, if you can sell a night's stay for the same price to a woman as you can to a man, it would seem wisest to board the woman at every opportunity.
That already happens. Especially with room shares, where the person renting is a female and only wants other females there(or, doesn't want men).
Well, they have an incentive to discriminate, but not necessarily a morally good reason. Regarding insurance: Being middle-aged is something we all get a chance at. Being white or female is not.
If a restaurant owner can show that blacks do not tip as well as whites, is it acceptable for him to always seat blacks at the back of the restaurant?
Discrimination may never be eliminated completely, but it can be reduced so that there are less incidents and a lower impact. And while some issues will be harder to prevent, others may be low hanging fruit.
It's like software bugs. We may never be free of them, but we can and do build better and better systems, tools, patterns and mentalities for increasing awareness and reducing bugs.
Nextdoor was able to reduce racial profiling with some software changes that increased awareness of possible racial bias and asked for additional details beyond race when people reported incidents.
If software is eating the world, I bet it can take a fair chunk out of racial discrimination rates (or any discrimination) if correctly applied.
At the end of the day, you can try to make a difference, or you can refuse to.
People can improve over time if they're nudged. People used to think slavery was ok, and attitudes changed. The majority used to think gay marriage should be banned, and attitudes changed. Small groups need to take a stand, and change big groups.
To take a moral stand will ultimately cost Airbnb in the short term, so they should be lauded and supported for it. (Some people may choose to not open up their homes if they aren't allowed to discriminate)
Its probably bad PR for AirBnB but fundamentally, there is a reason that their is a 'high' barrier to entry for the hospitality business...
Check out this article, which details some very simple UI tweaks that reduce racism on NextDoor, a neighborhood watch community: http://fusion.net/story/340171/how-nextdoor-reduced-racial-p...
Even simple things like requiring posters to give more details when their posts mention race can go a long way of improvement for that platform.
There certainly must be some low-hanging fruit that's applicable to airbnb.
I'd be interested in what % of rooms booked on AirBnB are actually people staying at some person's personal home with them and what % is rental properties, real bed and breakfasts, etc. I don't have any data but my impression is that it's mostly commercial renting by volume/$.
Yes, but a huge number of AirBnBs are de facto hotels. And hotels mitigate risk with insurance and can't (and shouldn't) discriminate. There's nothing personal about running a hotel (or a whole chain of them as evidenced by the number of properties being managed/run by some AirBnB hosts).
Why not both? That's essentially what Instant Book does — let Airbnb decide who stays instead of the host.
I'm Indian and smell of curry (probably... at least a few times a month). If someone hates the smell of curry, they should be allowed to blanket disallow Indians from staying.
Self knowledge is rare. I have it, you don't.
Basically it gives specific consequences to hosts being bigoted. Good.