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Comment by imaginology | Hacker News Reader

Why is this a problem? What's wrong with living a reclusive life, if that's what you want to do?

I live alone and don't go outside unless I have to buy food. I work online, and make electronic music and play video games when I'm not working. It's how I choose to live my life and don't see anything wrong with it.

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They ain't making babies - ignore that they may or may not be producing value via online work.

That's 541k individuals and rising that are not going to reproduce in a nation whose majority population is aging[1] and whose overall population is projected to collapse by almost 15% in 2050. Imagine 40% of your population being 65+. With a TRF of 1.7, that's over 1 million potential young replacements that are missing from the economy. Many people in Japan are terrified of the increasing trend if not necessarily the number of current individuals.

Declining birth rates are the norm in the west and the simple solution to that is immigration. That doesn't work so well in Japan, which while perfectly polite to visitors is in many places extremely homogeneous and they like to keep it that way.

[1]: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/retirement/ret...

[2]: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/tag/population/

[3]: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/without-bab...

I don't see how this is relevant. Nobody is having babies in Japan, especially the shut-ins.

Immigration is "the simple solution" if the only thing you care about - selfishly - is that your retirement and pension benefits are being paid out.

I guess I wasn't clear, I was responding to imaginology not the parent thread.

It's a problem that's suddenly gaining more interest in Japan because they aren't making babies. Getting more babies is a political platform that a lot of people are currently riding. Hikikomoris and NEETs are an easy, growing trend you can point to and say "this is why we aren't making enough babies, they need to do their part, our system is fine they're just lazy".

Shut-ins and NEETs are the last people you'd go to in order to improve demographics of any country. These are the people who generally avoid social contact much less talk to members of opposite sex.

I don't follow Japanese politics, but implicating NEETs in their demographic problems seems completely out of touch.

I think TkTech is pointing out that it's politically expedient to blame a group of people that everyone already dislikes for the problem, not suggesting it's a sensible approach.

Yup.

Japan has a cultural problem where women near/over 30 are not wanted. Men needs to be from a top company, otherwise no woman wants them. Cultural norms says it's taboo to nor marry anyone that is not Japanese.

When I was dating my ex, who is from Japan, a major part for not settling down with me was because I am not Japanese. She moved back to Japan, couldn't date anyone due to her age (late 20's). She ultimately dated/married a Japanese American and moved back to the US with him. I would imagine her husband being born and raised in America - could care less that she is 29.

Japanese society has mostly memetically accepted the cancerous idea that sex and love are bad or not for them. It's a lack of individual courage and unreasonable standards which result of, or are the consequence of, soft population control, whether intentional/not, collective/individual and necessary/not.

And now you are an expert on a society with hundreds of millions of people that dates back thousands of years. And you can diagnose all of its problems and report back to us. Good thing we have you adding to the conversation.

Sucks for them. Maybe they will get over their xenophobia and start letting in immigrants once their problems get bad enough.

Racism is both bad AND stupid, and I think it is hilarious for them to be suffering the consequences of their stupidity.

Aren't being yourself xenophobic by castigating them for having different values?

Theit system has a number of problems but it also has a number of advantages.

Besides, the countries who do let in immigrants are less xenophobic but not by a wide margin.

eh Canada is a good example. We're a country of immigrants

So culturally relativism basically?

I'm xenophobic by denouncing xenophobia?

Xenophobia is just another cultural value and if I disagree with it them IM the xenophobe?

You equated racism and xenophobia with a lack of desire for immigrants. Those are quite different concepts, even if there is an overlap.

Furthermore, you condemned an entire nation and wished harm upon them on the basis of a perceived breach of your own values, which I might add are not completely clear to me.

It doesn't have much to do with cultural relativism, but with the assumption that you know what's good for Japan better than they do.

3rd largest economy in the world.

Hosting the Olympics in 2020.

Their cultural icons Pokemon, Nintendo characters, etc are known around the world.

Very low crime rate.

Yeah total idiots those Japanese are.

They're not idiots by a long shot. But Japan is particularly racist. Living on an island and isolating yourself from the world for over a century will do that...

FYI: there are no laws that ban discrimination in Japan, for instance in the housing market. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan

The article you posted directly contradicts the claim "there are no laws that ban discrimination in Japan" though it supports the prevalence of racism.

As someone living in Tokyo. This xenophobic country is glorious. The problem is largely overblown and people are beyond nice. Easy to get friends and to date. Only problem is the working hours, otherwise it's way better than most countries. Only other place that I like as much is Sydney. Protip: be thin and behave well (no macho attitude) and you'll do well.

I would not say you're wrong but I believe it's important to note that the racism is not blatant, but rather perverse. As an example, foreigners working in a large Japanese organization will often feel a clear glass ceiling blocking their career advancement, regardless of their results, because of not being Japanese.

Another form of xenophobia is with the rental market, where a large proportion of places is simply out of reach for foreigners, regardless of their income level. Positive point is that this is usually not the case for the more premium bracket.

On the other hand, immigrating to Japan is very simple for qualified labor, which is great for foreigners looking for some experience here.

That's more likely to do with that foreigners will not know perfect Japanese so you'll reflect badly on the company. It's not racism lurking. Especially since the language has so many levels of politeness that means that even bending of the words are different depending on who you talk to. Business Japanese is very difficult even for Japanese. But it's always easier to hide behind anger. Just realize that many of the things that make Japan great has a drawback to them. But I prefer that countries are different so you can find a place that suits you.

> the simple solution to that is immigration. That doesn't work so well in Japan, which while perfectly polite to visitors is in many places extremely homogeneous and they like to keep it that way

In many countries we're seeking to repel this "simple solution" that is destroying us but are not allowed to.

Japan seems to be the only country in charge of themself.

Why is not reproducing a problem (to anyone but the Japanese who are against immigrants) ? On a global scale, with almost all ecosystems in decline and a looming climate crisis, not reproducing/falling birth rates is a blessing for everyone.

The social services and retirement funded by taxes is pretty much a pyramid scheme of sorts. Supporting a large population of retirees requires an even larger population of working tax payers. Otherwise there is going to be degradation and cuts to services.

This is the big elephant in the room that I don't see many people talking about. All of those social programs are set up with a huge assumption of exponential population growth. When that doesn't happen, they risk collapse. You can try to fix it with immigration, but often they end up dragging on those same social programs, at the very least in the short term. Their kids might not, but do we have that kind of time?

...so we (as in society and the press) implicitly blame and shame the people who didn't cause the problem in the first place for not contributing their fair share to other peoples' problems.

That's a nice ironic load of bull right there.

> With a TRF of 1.7

TRF?

Total Fertility Rate. Mean number of children, per woman, in the population. According to the CIA World Factbook, it's actually 1.4 for Japan, as of 2015. You need about 2.1 for population replacement, because of factors like premature death.

And immigration is going so well in other places.

Because being solitary for too long has been shown to have adverse effects on your mental health and is correlated with being unhealthy. As someone who has done what you're doing I can say unequivocally that I regret every minute of it and wish that I could've spent that time actually connecting with people.

There are pretty specific set of criteria to be labeled as hikikomori and I'm not sure if you quite fit that definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori

GP does not sound like a hikikomori; he even admits to going outside occasionally. If he wants to increase his hiki-level, he needs to reduce social contact as much as possible, and only come leave his home at hours when no one will notice him, if he leaves at all. The whole point is essentially self-imposed solitary confinement due to extreme fear/depression/social anxiety. Asking what's wrong with a reclusive life doesn't sound hiki to me at all.

I'm an introvert and tend toward reclusion, but still think that reclusion can be bad. We should interact with others to help them and to be helped IRL.

This is much more than just being introverted or working a job that has little social interaction. This is complete withdraw from society. Many of these people don't even use the internet for communication. They don't go outside. Usually a parent takes care of them but never sees them. Their care taker leaves their meals at their bedroom door and walks away. It's incredibly sad.

It's not what they want to do.

If you want a sobering view into the life of a hikki, browse wizchan for a few hours. These are not happy people.

Eh... Wizardchan is a special place. First of all, it's not Japanese—most of the users there are American or European. Second, forums have a culture and tone. If curious people see posters be angry and mad at society, they will either join in because they share the same values, or go somewhere else. So basically Wizardchan could be considered a subset of NEETs that are angry and sad.

But in the end, I do agree most NEETs aren't happy. I think when we hear "not working or studying" we tend to think "vacation", not depression/loneliness/being ill.

I think if half a million young people are doing it, it's worth at least studying right? No need to call it bad or good just yet.

According to the documentary I watched, a lot of these people are very intellectual but have some kind of falling out with society. Since Japan bases a lot of it's social norms on or around shame, these people become recluses because of their "failure" not because they want to play video games and be on the internet. A half a million people not contributing to a society that is already lacking in labor force cannot be called a good thing.

I don't think reclusiveness is the problem per se. These individuals are either fully or partially dependent on family or the government for the basic necessities.

Have you checked your vitamin D level lately?

If you're honestly happy doing that, I would agree and say there's nothing wrong with it.

Out of curiosity, what's your job?

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