Cheap MacBook chargers create big sparks | Hacker News Reader

Cheap MacBook chargers create big sparks

righto.com

64 pointsdwaxe71 comments

This is all fine and good, but I used my FLIR gun to register my official Apple charger hitting 139ºC because of a cord that had frayed due to poor strain relief: https://twitter.com/mmastrac/status/741066994598846465

There are no good options here, not even official ones.

Are you suggesting that the official chargers fail at an unacceptable rate? Because that has not been my experience.

It's been entirely my experience. I've got four of them for a house full of MacBooks - three are dangerously frayed at one end or the other and required me to use electrical tape+spring to repair them.

Somewhat amusingly, I bought a cheap knockoff MacBook charger off Amazon and it's been super-reliable other than running about 10ºC hotter than a standard Apple one.

Same experience, over the course of over decade. iBook, Powerbook, Macbook, whatever, all frayed power cords or other defects at the laptop connector end.

I'm an Apple fanboy most of the time, but damn is this getting old.

Sugru works wonders though, if you catch it early enough.

Not to mention the thieving jerks charge $90 for a replacement. Mine seem to last 18 months at most.

Even if they insist on keeping their incredibly fragile cords, they could make them user swappable -- just like the wall end -- and sell replacements for $10.

You know the replacements would be $29 for a 1 foot option and $49 for a 5 foot option. :)

you mean like usb-c?

Yeah, but I still want the magnetic charger break-away. That saves my laptop at least once every 6 months.

This happens with Dell chargers all the time too but that's just because the terrible design makes it impossible to wrap the cable without putting a lot of stress on the end.

It's a difficult problem to solve, I'd prefer if the cables were simply a cheap replaceable part.

In my experience, the frayed cords come from pulling or sitting directly on the cord. Don't pull or sit on the cord. Use the connector directly to manipulate the connection.

The insulation on Apple cables is notably fragile in comparison to other cables. It would be OK for a permanent installation, but these are portable machines. Moving around just a bit on a regular basis is enough to cause failure after a few months.

I've gone through multiple power bricks and multiple lightning cables. The experience has made me even more hostile in the face of Apple's long history of proprietary cabling.

>Moving around just a bit on a regular basis is enough to cause failure after a few months.

This is shocking. The only power adapter that every started to have fraying was one that went into a tight backup situation that I biked with every day for three years, plugged in and out of several times a day. There was a ton of wear on that cable, every few months I'd clean it off because of the abuse it took. And it still lasted three years.

Also, which proprietary cables are you talking about? Charging cables are the only proprietary connector on a Mac and this is an industry-wide phenomenon, not an Apple phenomenon. It's an odd juxtaposition of an extremely unusual cord experience along with an unusual opinion on proprietary cords.

In my experience I have a MBP charger sitting in a cable channel under my desk, laid across my desk. There's about as little pressure on the cable as physically possible. The cable is even channeled across the desk with little BlueLounge connectors.

Two have frayed in four years. Genuine Apple, not $20 knock offs.

Interesting. In my over decade of MacBook ownership (about 5 or 6 MacBooks in total across my personal, work and wife's devices), I've never had a single problem with fraying cords.

Happened to me in about 4 or 5 months. Ridiculously crappy, quicker than the ones Lenovo and Dell ship even. I expected better build quality from Apple but given the heat and noise issues I have I don't really think I've seen it. First time I've been an Apple customer and probably the last.

How long did you get out of your Dell charger for comparison? I've seen two solid years out of mine literally moved about all the time, every single day. I always fold it well when I put it in my bag though as to not bend near the connector.

The worst thing that happened was one of the dell chargers started making a quiet beeping/buzzing sound - I read it was to do with the components coming lose inside and the sound was caused by the switching supply. I decided out of choice to get another, although there was nothing actually wrong with it as far as performance goes.

Mine fray constantly. I've never owned an apple device that HASN'T had terrible cords. I googled about why their cords are so crappy and found a thread on reddit with tons of people complaining. Apparently it's because the designers at apple thing cord reinforcement is not aesthetically pleasing. Sucks, I love their products, just wish their cords lasted longer.

https://www.thrillist.com/tech/nation/why-apple-hasnt-fixed-...

Try this (or a simpler variation thereof): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6duVvwdd5F0

I usually wrap my Apple charger loosely and throw it in a backpack. You can optionally attach a cheap piece of Velcro to keep it all together.

Edit: Here's another good cable wrapping demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-74OEVUOKOw

Possibly a change in construction. My old, 2011 60W 13" MBP charger is working like a change. My wife's 2014 85W 15" MBP charger is frayed at both ends. I've tried to bandage it up with ResQ tape and even that is starting to breakdown.

The feeling in the cords is quite different; while mine is quite flexible, hers feels really stiff. I believe whatever change that was made, possibly BPA-free, it has reduced the wearability of their cables.

Seriously? Apple chargers are terrible in my experience... They rarely last more than 18 months. No other charger I've used has had anything close to this failure rate (I'm a hobbyist audio engineer, and I'm _very_ particular about treating cables well).

The other frustrating thing is that they aren't worth repairing. The overly clever coaxial cable design makes repairing a fray more hassle than it's worth.

I imagine it depends where the computer is used - users that mostly use it on a desk where they plug / unplug it but don't move it around a lot while plugged in probably don't have problems. The cords always seem to fail if they are used a lot on a couch / in bed etc, and since the portion of the cord that fails is not easily replaceable there's not much choice but to buy a new one for nearly $100.

A long time ago, before the MagSafe cables, name brand third-party Mac laptop chargers were available that you could use however you want without fraying. I had one from Macallay. The reason why it never had any issues when using it the same way Apple chargers failed was obvious: the cable where it connected to the computer was a lot thicker.

As far as I know, there's no legal third party MagSafe cables, and the knock off ones copy Apple's design anyway and have no advantages. I've learned to just use it on a desk most of the time when plugged in, since it's a nuisance to deal with failing power cables. But for me, that's a pretty big trade off in order to gain a more aesthetically pleasing cord thickness.

I suppose it's debatable what sort of usage counts as 'abuse' or not, but you can be assured that the Apple chargers will fail in the exact same circumstances that other chargers will not. It's probably my single biggest issue with their hardware, especially since they prevent any alternatives from being available.

Apple chargers have terrible reviews directly on the apple.com website. Go look for yourself if you don't believe me.

Office of ~ 15 macs here, all machines within 4 years old. It seems the Magsafe 2 chargers are failing at a MUCH higher rate then the old side mount Magsafe 1 chargers. All fraying around the T Magsafe connector.

I have just had to order 3 more chargers.

I am not saying that people weren't rough with them (quite likely at least 1 of the users were), but the Side mount Magsafe 1 chargers seemed to fare better.

What are people doing to their Apple chargers to make them fray? I've had the same Apple charger for several years, packing and unpacking it daily in my backpack, and it shows no sign of fraying.

Do you ever sit on a couch with your laptop? I do this a lot, and I think this is when it gets destroyed. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a good way to avoid this other than just making the cable sturdier somehow.

An ex-girlfriend used her (non-mac) laptop on the couch a lot, and constantly ended up with frayed cables.

What I found was that when she used a plugged-in device, she paid little attention to the angle the cable went out at. I guess it's from my time dealing with fiber, but I always make sure that if the cable has to turn a corner, I give it as gentle a curve as possible. This makes a huge difference in resisting fraying.

How does your couch destroy your charger cord?

It's hard to be in sitting position and also keep the cable flat and going to the side. It's usually at least hanging downwards, and also perhaps sideways if you're sitting lengthwise on the couch.

Coiling the cord by hand causes the wire to twist, which in turn causes fraying.

See this video for more details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEd7ru24Vx0

> Coiling the cord by hand causes the wire to twist, which in turn causes fraying.

Not if you know how to coil it properly - yet the sheath on the cable of my MBP PSU has split, despite not using the fold-up cable storage arms that would encourage bending the cable at an awkward angle.

I always use the arms, like this: https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2013/12/131213_...

Works fine over about 1000 (?) repetitions so far.

Sometimes I think that the usual workplace safety orientation videos should be replaced (augmented?) with videos like these, showing simple tips for how to keep the workplace from becoming a disaster: how to coil cables, how to do your dishes, how to walk down the hall without making everyone's desks vibrate, etc.

Bending cables at >90 degrees near the connector will do it.

Yelling at the persons who do that, followed by applying unsightly amounts of tape to make it impossible to do, will delay the inevitable.

(Third step, acceptance: order more cables from sources according to the tightness of your fist.)

Apple might be interested in having that sent to their laboratory for analysis, as assessing how products have failed is important for improving them. Philips asked this, when I complained about a failure of an iron.

(Or Apple might not care, as it's pretty obvious that the power cord is less sturdy than on every competitor's products. Presumably a cable grommet would ruin the look...)

Edit to add: you can buy a cable grommet for an Apple charger from various retailers, for example http://www.thefrayfix.com/ or https://www.thriftcat.org/upc/100001018599/85w-magsafe2-prot... )

Up next,"Build this small welding unit using only things you find in your backpack!"

I think Ken did a great job but missed an interesting point, if you have one of these cheap chargers and leave it plugged in with the end laying about on your desk waiting for you to bring your Macbook and plug it in, then anything on your desk can short it. Pen clips, paper clips, metalized trinkets from the last trade show you visited. If you aren't the clean spartan desk type (and I'm not) you may find burn marks on your desk where things have hit the end of the connector, or worse.

I thought I mentioned that in the article: "Maybe you think these safety issues don't matter because you don't poke your charger with a paperclip. But if you have any metal objects on your desk, a random contact could yield a surprisingly large spark."

Apparently I was blinded by the spark video!

Interestingly I went back and looked at it again, and my eyes see the big pictures of the complexity, the warning is under that those pictures but not part of the conclusion. So my reading went right past it. I'd suggest that you move that paragraph under the Conclusion header (I think it can be justifiably considered part of the conclusion, do you?) then it pulls the attention right to it.

Ok, I moved it to the conclusion. I try to have a good pacing between the text and images, but I guess that paragraph was too short to be wedged between the images.

Lightning connectors with their exposed leads just make me all kinds of paranoid about leaving them out on my always cluttered desks. Also, I often get a big spark when plugging my official Apple chargers(Macbook Pro and the 29W USB-C charger) into a surge protector.

I once bought a fake charger and you could feel a tinkly sensation around the mousepad while it was charging. Obviously I threw it out quickly.

Funny, we had that on an original (that came with the macbook, straight from Apple's online store). Supposedly manufacturing defect and was replaced for free, but still.

My 2012 27" iMac gave me the same sensation feeling around the back for the ports.

That also happens with the official chargers if you use the two-prong plug.

I got that on an airplane with the two-pronged plug. The metal armrest was making my arm tingle!

Never had that happen with an official charger, and have only used the european 2-prong plug and the US 2 prong flat.

It's a well-known phenomenon and was the subject of an HN submission a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11838349

That's interesting. I've never noticed it myself, but it makes some sense.

this often happens even with original chargers, if you dont use a grounded cable. I always use a grounded cable.

That may be normal leakage from the Y capacitor between the primary and secondary. 250 microamps of leakage (IEC 60950?) is allowed, which you can feel but is harmless. I am told that the Y capacitor reduces EMI (electromagnetic interference).

Emmett Brown, is that you?

As people noted it's because likely you have a current leakage. Read this post for more information: http://superuser.com/questions/462244/electric-shock-mild-vi...

I recently experienced this while travelling to India. Turns out the house I was staying at had a grounding issue and I couldn't do anything. This is less likely for most people and it's just better to use the cable with the grounding pin.

The thing is that the fake charger provided current leakage from the same outlet that the original doesn't, so I concluded that the fake charger was at fault.

Both chargers where connected without ground using the 2-prong round adaptor.

The standard barrel connector protects against short-circuiting with a simple plastic ring. The magsafe connector requires a fucking microcontroller.

The standard connectors have a horrible tendency to break through mechanical wear after a few years. On the laptop side, not the charger side.

They also take the laptop with them then pulled by a kid or fell over on.

If there's a problem with the MagSafe, it's that the cable itself breaks after 12-18 months due to lack of stress relief, requiring an expensive replacement and inspiring people to buy $15 euro fire starters.

Complain about Apple being too cheap to hire some proper engineers to build the cable, not the brilliantly designed connector.

I've repaired dozens of laptops and the one thing the broken power connectors had in common was being soldered directly to the motherboard instead of using a separate assembly.

I bought my off-brand MBA charger from Prime Cables (like Monoprice, but in Canada) and wonder how well they're made. I messaged them on social media linking the last article along these lines but they never responded.

So in essence, if you want to verify the authenticity of your macbook charger, you should put a paperclip in the connector.

I can tell you from personal experience. When you have a baby or toddler who is curious about wires and quick about it, those safety features are very handy!

Dare I ask what happens if you stick the cheap one in your mouth?

I don't think I'm interested in signing up to do the experiment personally...

Even as an adult, I like Apple chargers because I know they were engineered well enough to not shock me. I have no problem leaving the connector on the couch, accidentally sticking my finger on the contact points, etc.

It is a nice peace of mind when my brain is not on edge that it might be plugged in when I see it laying around. I could not say the same thing for my cheaper USB phone charger.

The real problem I have here is that even if you want to buy genuine apple equipment its very difficult aside from buying from apple.com or an apple store.

Specifically, buying from Amazon is basically a crapshoot with Apple gear of getting genuine stuff or cheap off-brand knockoffs and there really isn't any easy way to figure out what you're getting before you order.

This article illustrates a great point, but it makes me wonder why there isn't a middle ground between an overpriced apple charger, and the cheap (and unsafe) knockoffs. Eg, why can't I purchase a MFi certified charger at 1/2 or 2/3 the price of an official charger that I know will be safe?

For people who want highest quality without question, there is the Apple genuine charger. For people who want lowest price, there is the knockoff. Who is your hypothetical high quality knockoff for? People who want a low-ish price and have the ability test the electrical properties of the product?

High quality knockoffs are the entire business model of stores like Aldi.

In some cases, it's the original manufacturer also producing the knockoff. It's a way of selling to a market segment that would otherwise utterly ignore them.

The catch-22 is that Apple shoehorned substantial complexity into the charger, to make it and associated cables/connectors very lightweight, while still supporting batteries with very high power density. Compare the article's photos of the PCB, etc, of the Apple product and the cheap knock-off, both of which have to squeeze into the same plastic housing. That complexity costs money. Trimming out complexity generally means trimming out safety features (which already are possibly insufficient, considering some of the other responses on this thread).

I agree; complexity costs money. But I guess I'm wondering if there is still a lot of profit margin built into the cost of the apple charger that could be shaved by a decent third-party such as Monoprice.

Take lightning cables: I can buy the Apple lightning cable for $25, or I can buy a perfectly good Monoprice, MFi-certified lightning cable for $7, or I can buy a no name, non-certified cable (that will likely have issues) for a buck or two on ebay.

I would expect any 3rd party manufacturer seeking to replicate the safety margins of Apple's own power adapters may ultimately find it difficult to produce a competitive alternative, once you factor in costs of NDAs with Apple and such. (Apple likely works to ensure it stays this way.) Cables are passive, USB chargers are generally low wattage, while the Macbook adapters have active regulation, plus higher power ratings.

The magnetic power connector is patented. Apple doesn't license it, and a respectable manufacturer won't want to infringe it.

AIUI Apple won't license the MagSafe connector/protocol to third parties. So the only third party MagSafe-like chargers are made by small, Chinese (I assume) companies that appear content to disregard Apple's IPR and safety regulations like the CE mark. These companies tend to go for absolute lowest price they can, with the cheapest design and the cheapest components.

It's my hope that future Macbooks and Macbook Pros will all go with USB-C charging. Meaning there can be a middle ground between unsafe bargain basement chargers, and fray-prone Apple chargers.

The power density of modern Li-Ion batteries is surprising. These chargers have to move substantial current over cables and connectors that just become ever lighter.

That's a bit sensational. There are tons of legitimate, high quality power supplies that will create "big sparks" when you short them out. You can stick a scissor into the next power outlet and chances are you will come away with much more than sparks.

The only difference here is that Apple does a handshake prior to switching the power supply outputs on. The cheapie saved on the extra logic. Of course this is only necessary in the first place because the connector isn't very safe with the exposed pins.

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