What is clear is that the journalist and his driver were in the presence of armed Iraqis carrying AK-47s and RPGs at the wrong time and in the wrong place. It was common practice for Iraqi stringers for news agencies like Reuters to embed themselves with insurgents in the hope of being extremely close to the story and getting pictures they would not otherwise have been able to obtain, but it was a very risky thing to do. If soldiers have already seen the people around you carrying guns and RPGs, they're a whole lot more likely to misinterpret your camera lens as an RPG when it peeks around a corner.
There were also two Apaches at the scene, but it's not entirely clear which crew is making each comment on the radio and what they can see as we only have one viewport into this event, which comes from the gunner's sight of only one of the Apaches. It is entirely plausible that the other Apache crew did clearly see weapons and that, outside the field of view of the camera we're looking at, they saw the black van picking up weapons. Further, each helicopter also has a separate sight for the pilot which can be slewed on its own axis and which we cannot see.
In short, the video lacks context and it's difficult to make a conclusive judgement without that context. We are given only one limited viewport into this event and expected to pronounce judgement on four guys who at once had a much broader and more detailed view of the situation but who also, unlike us, had to process that information in real-time, not from a video which could be rewound and played back. Whatever happened here, I'm not as ready to call it murder as WikiLeaks and some of the commenters here have been.
The official military statement about the incident was as follows:
"The Apache crew fired because militants 'were endangering the stability of Iraq' and because they had positive identification that the militants 'had weapons and were using them against coalition and Iraqi security forces.'"
There aren't any coalition or Iraqi security forces in the area, and none are ever mentioned in the video. So while it's possible that an RPG was found at the scene, it's just as possible that the military was lying about both.
Your assertion that there were no Iraqi or coalition ground forces in the area is not supported by the video.
[1] http://duckbar.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/c7/c76f1e685afe...
Regardless, this discussion is now irrelevant, as it has been confirmed elsewhere that the photo I posted above was taken at this scene, presumably while Namir was peeking around the corner. That photo shows US troops no further than 200 m away, if I recall that lens's capabilities correctly.
They specifically mention a Bradley ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Bradley ) in the video.
Leaving aside your argument, don't you find the voice track coming from the gunner shocking? The man actually had glee in his voice as he was gunning down people that obviously had no possible chance to defend themselves or harm him. An AK-47 vs. an Apache helicopter is no threat.
As others have stated, at the range from the gunner's PoV, an RPG, even if he had one, cannot hit the helicopter.
The fact that there are cold-blooded killers in the cockpit of a helicopter, that take joy in killing innocent civilians should shock each and every one of us.
Aren't you sick of being an apologist for an unjustified killing in an unjustified war?
No. My argument is that we are lacking a huge amount of context by virtue of having only a single narrow view into this event, through the targeting device of only one of the crewmen in only one of the Apaches, so it's foolish to assume that the statements made over the radio are fabrications based on what we're seeing in this video alone. There are at least six separate viewpoints here; those of Bushmaster 06, Hotel 26 and each of the four crewmen in the Apaches; we only have access to a portion of one of those. Just because something mentioned over the radio is not seen in this video does not mean it did not exist. Of course, it doesn't mean it did exist either, but that should go without saying.
I am convinced, based on what I did see in this video, that some of the men were armed. But I can't say that the crew of both Apaches were entirely in the right in the way they behaved or that they were entirely in the wrong, because I don't think it's possible to make such a definitive judgement without having additional context.
Leaving aside your argument, don't you find the voice track coming from the gunner shocking? The man actually had glee in his voice as he was gunning down people that obviously had no possible chance to defend themselves or harm him. An AK-47 vs. an Apache helicopter is no threat. As others have stated, at the range from the gunner's PoV, an RPG, even if he had one, cannot hit the helicopter.
If you think that all soldiers shoot their enemies with grim remorse and regret, you're naive about the realities of war. Those pilots & gunners were convinced those guys are all insurgents (which some appear to have been) and they were pumped with adrenaline which tends to produce a slightly euphoric feeling. It has always been like this; do you really think that bomber crews and fighter-bomber pilots in World War II didn't whoop with joy when they scored a direct hit and wiped out a bunch of enemy soldiers? Of course they did. The quiet introspection comes later, when the adrenaline wears off and they're alone with their thoughts back at base.
Your comments about there being no threat to the helicopters are irrelevant, because the perceived threat was obviously to the vehicles of Bushmaster element, less than 100 m from the street corner where the action took place. The Apaches were also flying in a hostile area, where RPGs had brought down Apaches before, so that would have amped the adrenaline up even further.
The fact that there are cold-blooded killers in the cockpit of a helicopter, that take joy in killing innocent civilians should shock each and every one of us.
It's very clear from the video and the investigation that the crew did not think they were killing civilians, so that's a false premise.
Aren't you sick of being an apologist for an unjustified killing in an unjustified war?
That's hardly a fair or honest question. I have made no statements about the Iraq War as a whole and it's your assumption, based on limited evidence, that the killing was unjustified. A reasonable case can and has been made that the killing, at least of the journalists, was excusable when considering the context.
I have not come down on either side of the argument, but I have on principle sought to oppose some of the more knee-jerk reactions that have made unjustified assumptions about the event based only on this video. This is an exceptionally explosive issue so it's very important that the debate which surrounds it is conducted in a careful and logical manner without excessive emotion. Posts like yours, with emotional arguments and inflammatory language, aren't helpful.
I would be very very surprised if the device at 4:12 is an RPG. It looks and behaves like a long lens camera. At 4:15 you can see a space between the device and the body of the person. An RPG is also quite heavy and has a distinct shape and you wouldn't generally turn it around a corner.
As there also according to wikileaks were photographers on the scene. It's just far more likely that it's one of the front two guys who carries something that picks up his camera and take some pictures. If that is the case, then I would have to question the chopper crews ability to recognize weapons on the ground.
You think it looks like a camera now. Keep in mind that the helicopter was called in to look for a group of men that were firing at troops on the ground that are down the street from where the "camera" is pointing at 4:15. Again, an RPG isn't quite heavy. The standard RPG-7 weighs 15 pounds.
To me the chopper crew is just sloppy and they shouldn't be. I get why some grunt storming buildings may accidentally shoot someone holding up a broom or something. But these guys should have the discipline and training to be able to stay cool and wait things out. There's clearly not a full blown street fight going on at this location. And what happens at 5:13?
But frankly I'll always be on the side of war corespondents after reading "My war gone by, I miss it so" and seeing "War Photographer".
So, no one in Baghdad uses bodyguards? All Iraqi policemen must be at all the time in uniform, even for covert entry? I don't think an AK is any convincing ground for believing them to be insurgents. Americans aren't the only ones with rights to carry guns, specially in the most dangerous city on Earth.
At 4:12, it definitely looks like there's an RPG. Even more so at 4:19.
It's a pity you couldn't be bothered to watch thirty seconds more of the video. At 4:49, when the helicopter goes around the house, we see the full group, one second or so before the fire starts. No one is holding an RPG.
What you say that looks like one is actually a glimpse of some sort of tube. I guess construction workers must have a hard time on Baghdad, if that's grounds for use of deadly force.
The helicopter was called in by ground troops who were taking small arms fire from a small group of men in this area.
They seem very relaxed, for insurgents in the middle of a fire fight. They are walking, move in a close group, are calm and walk exposed in the middle of the street. Not exactly standard military procedure.
It's unwise to approach an active combat zone with weapons.
It's a pity you couldn't be bothered to watch thirty seconds more of the video. At 4:49, when the helicopter goes around the house, we see the full group, one second or so before the fire starts. No one is holding an RPG.
I see a crowd of people at that point. It's difficult to tell what the people in the back are doing. Presumably, there could still be someone peaking around the corner at the Humvee down the road. Further, I already saw several guns, and so did the apache crew. The decision to fire had already been made.
They seem very relaxed, for insurgents in the middle of a fire fight. They are walking, move in a close group, are calm and walk exposed in the middle of the street. Not exactly standard military procedure.
This isn't Mission Impossible. When the bullets aren't flying and there is no enemy in sight, there isn't a reason to expect people to move like there are.
Hacker News is becoming reddit, except reddit has a hide button.