If you compare a Model S to a S-class Mercedes, you have never driven a S-class or be driven around in one. Just because Tesla is overpriced for hipsters doesn't mean you can compare it to other cars in the price bracket.
Well, your prescription doesn't change the fact that magazine journalists, video bloggers, and prospective buyers do in fact compare them because they are roughly in the same price bracket.[1]
It might be possible that most Tesla buyers are only:
1) wealthy Prius owners who want to upgrade to something bigger and more technologically advanced and would never consider Mercedes S-Class
2) eco-green consumers who would only bicycle to work or hail Uber/Lyft if car travel was necessary and would never consider Mercedes S-Class
But based on forum discussions where prospective buyers test drove both and chose one or the other, it seems like there is a population of owners who seriously considered both cars. (Same type of comparison goes for BMW/Audi.)
[1]https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+"model+s"+vs+mercedes+...
And if you think a S-class Mercedes is incomparably superior to a Tesla Model S, but the Tesla S is still outselling it by a wide margin, just imagine what's going to happen when Tesla's next iteration of a luxury sedan gets even closer to the Merc!
As we don't have data here we're thrown back to opinions.
I would think Tesla users buy a Model S for the electric drive and it's an upper class car and for the branding ("I drive a Tesla, I'm cool")
People buy a S-class because of the luxary and thebranding ("I drive a S-class, I'm rich").
"but the Tesla S is still outselling it by a wide margin"
It's outselling the S-class because the market it markets itself to is larger.
Marketing doesn't exclusively mean advertising:
The American Marketing Association has defined marketing as "the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large."[0]
Tesla has a clear marketing strategy in terms of what types of cars they sell and to what types of people. The fact that they don't pay for advertising doesn't change that. Musk/Tesla can be selective about who they do interviews with, or provide test cars to, etc. Those things are part of the marketing, even if there is no explicit purchasing of advertising.
"Tesla dont pay for advertising"
The God King doesn't need advertising when his disciples spread his words for free.
Tesla is trying to pivot towards mass market, this is well known. Whether they keep the luxury/sports line or push those into a new brand (or sub-brand) is the big question. But I don't think anyone questions whether or not the currently available Tesla cars fall into the luxury category. Both design and price suitable fall into that category.
Mercedes might have an older and long-term luxury brand that is associated with the wealthy, which is helpful, but not an absolutely critical barrier for a brand/product to be put into the luxury category.
my feeling is that parent comment wasn't claiming that tesla wasn't a luxury brand but that it was a "cool upper-class" luxury brand. Now, obviously, this is a very slippery distinction, and as someone who probably wouldn't spend that much money on a car at all, sure, it looks like a meaningless distinction... but I don't think it is, I mean, to the people who might buy the car. Tesla, clearly, is a brand for people willing to spend a lot more than the minimum on transportation, so I do think it can properly be called a 'luxury brand', but I think parent's point was that Tesla is a luxury brand that appeals to people for whom other luxury brands wouldn't appeal. I do know several people who would be vaguely embarrassed to purchase a Benz, who would seriously consider the Tesla, mostly for social reasons... and when you get down to it, social reasons dominate for cars in that price range. Hell, I might be in that group? I mean, if I came into a huge amount of money tomorrow and was looking for a luxury car... I'd probably consider the Tesla to reflect more positively socially on me than a S class or something.
Tesla is different from BMW or Mercedes just like Cadillac is different from those brands. (I mean, it has yet to be seen if Tesla will make BMW and Mercedes obsolete the way that Acura and Lexus made Cadillac obsolete. But the point being that there are big differences between the people who might buy the different luxury brands, even when the price range is similar.)
Now, i don't know that parent is correct in saying that Tesla luxury appeals to more people than Benz or BMW luxury, or Acura or Lexus luxury, but I do think that parent is correct in that the overlap between people who would buy a Benz and people who would buy a Tesla is not 100%, even though they are priced similarly.
Did you actually check where a Model S starts after tax credits vs. the base price of a S-Class?
Living in the Netherlands, the price of a Tesla is around 100.000 euros. However, if I can lease the thing, the actual cost (due to tax benefit, etc) drops like a rock to a level that compares to a small, cheap car. For full electric cars you hardly pay taxes because the government wants to stimulate this clean way of transportation.
Now comparing to a Mercedes with a similar price is wrong, simply because the Mercedes with a similar price is costing much, much more in day to day operation: more tax (heavy car = high tax), no green car, so more taxes).
I believe that at least for the Netherlands, most hybrid or full-electric cars are driven by people that have a company car. We just love tax refunds. We hate the hassle of charging, so many hybrid cars in 2015 (Mitsubishi Outlander is a good example) were driven on petrol - not electricity.
The weights of the Tesla Model S and the Mercedea Class S are pretty much identical.
These two statements are not mutually exclusive.
In The Netherlands cars are taxed on multiple factors[1] including CO^2 emission, type, and very significantly on weight.
In Tesla's case the weight is being heavily offset by the lack of CO^2 emissions, whereas the Mercedes gets all the taxes of a normal gasoline car and the weight tax on top of that.
1. http://www.expatax.nl/kb/article/how-much-road-tax-will-i-ha...
It's interesting that Netherlands seems to assume all electric cars are green. But Singapore actually calculates the carbon emissions per km and finds the Tesla Model S to be very environmentally unfriendly: the Model S attracts a surcharge of $15,000 while the BMW i3 gets a rebate of $30,000 [1].
[1] http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/electric-car...
[1] http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/lta-relookin...
It seems the rent/loan/buying tradeoff would be independent of the choice of car.
If you buy both without a carrier, you might pay 400 EUR for the mid class phone and 800 EUR for the premium phone. The price difference no looks huge.
(The difference in acucmulated prices is the "buying" price of the phone)
Say a price of a brand new Tesla is 100k Euro. If you got a loan from a bank to buy it, you might be paying back 1000-2000 euro a month just to pay it back in a few years. That is quite a lot. There are companies however, which let you part-lease or part-hire or however they call it, when you pay roughly 1/2 of the value of the car over 3-4-5 years, but you don't get to keep it at the end. So you might have a brand new Tesla S, for say 400 euro a month - which is very affordable. The only caveat is that you don't get to own the car at the end - but for a lot of people that's not a huge issue.
I'm not sure it's always not worth saying; being too focused on trends is a valid criticism.
http://www.arodmercedesbenz.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/S...
But I say this as a millennial with an engineering degree, so I don't really know if the marketers particularly care about my opinion on what is stylish or not.
http://automiddleeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AMG-spo...
You don't need to pay anything extra to beat an s-class, based on their website. The slowest Tesla, the station wagon/suv x version on the slowest/lowest end battery (75kwh) was 0 to 60 in 6.0 seconds, beating all model s's-class mercedes. This was the easiest comparison site I could find, the various models of both cars makes it a little hard to pick one spec model to compare. Never the less, the low end tesla suv beat all s class.
http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/mercedes-0-60-mph-...
http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/tesla-0-60-mph-tim...
The s class interior is nice. My dad has one, so many buttons, but it's smooth, etc. Soon, Mercedes will start advertising that the new s class is not like your dad's oldsmobile, i mean mercedes.
You could have just as easily said:
"... the C class interior (or the 3series or A4) is worlds better. Not even in the same league."
It's stupefying how poor and sparse the Model S interior is. Setting aside issues of taste (that is, adjusting for the fact that it is a minimalist design) it's just completely out of place in a 100k+ car.
That's why I said "adjusting for differences in taste".
The A4[1] has a very tasteful, restrained design that is also extremely high quality with high end materials. It also is much, much nicer than the Model S.
[1] Low end, entry level Audi.
every high end german car interior is completely customizable. all that wood can be replaced with plastic, or carbon fiber. all the leather can be replaced with alcantera. all the bling bling can be replaced with lightweight alternatives, or just omitted entirely from the build. you can literally change the seatbelt colors on a porsche, or the color of the stitching in the leather.
you wouldn't know this, because you probably never actually shopped for one, you decided on tesla because you like the fact that it's electric and are a fan of the company. there's nothing wrong with this, that's how many buyers of porsche, audi, etc, operate -- but it shows that you aren't really the target market for the german stuff.
does any tesla cut corners as sharp as BMW? is the luxury feel of being inside comparable to S class? and so on.
the only positive feedback on Teslas i've heard compared to those germans is acceleration. part of the whole experience, but personally not the most important one - that would be handling for me, BMWs are out of this world
Yeah, the interior is not as nice as a top end BMW or Mercedes. I don't care, driving the car is amazing. I drove a $150k Audi RS7 the other day. The whole time i wanted to be back in my S.
The interior is not as nice as our 328 wagon. It's no where close to a high-end model. They are fascinating cars, but the fit and finish and range are still lacking (from my perspective, anyway). And sedans are boring.
Yes, the Tesla is super fun when you get to push the speeder, but the rest of the time it's just not. This was also a year before Tesla launched their "autopilot", and I picked an E-class with Mercedes' self-driving tech which had already been on the market for years at that point...
Hire some established car interior people from existing companies, and work with existing suppliers of luxury manufacturers. The interior is the one part of the car that doesn't need to try to be innovative, so they could have basically just copied their German rivals. Am I missing something about how hard this is?
Also, is it really that bad? I've never driven or ridden in a Tesla, but I've looked inside one in a showroom and thought it looked pretty nice inside.
And at the end of the day, quality costs, and the price of the Model S is high enough already.
My soon 3yo Mercedes E-class doesn't squeak, rattle, flap, wobble, dinkle, pop or waffle anywhere. Nothing.
Meanwhile, the Tesla I test-drove felt much cheaper. It's nice enough, but it really feels like the cheapest entry-level German luxury cars, while it's priced like their highest-end cars. I've also seen reports that build quality is hit-and-miss, they start to squeak and rattle after a while if you're unlucky.
Have you ever driven a manual? They, too, can give you acceleration exactly when you want it.
My biggest gripe about driving in the US. No manuals to rent -.-
What Tesla does do better is the constant torque. That must be fun.
This comparison is not even in the same time zone. The average American drives a car with gearing technology at least two or three entire generations beyond manuals. Electric cars feel like a couple generations beyond even the best automatic setups.
A car with a good CVT, for example, doesn't even switch "gears", it's one continuous acceleration from 0 to speed. My current car, a hybrid with a primary motivating electric motor, makes my wife's CVT feel like a steam-punk jalopy.
A good electric car, on the other hand, makes even the best automatic feel like the engine is dragging, or you're pulling a trailer or something.
Manuals, even great ones, feel like some stone-aged anachronism. After riding around in an electric, then getting in a manual, you can't believe that cars are still being made with such terrible gear shifting contraptions. It's like that car from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang with all the lever pulling and pedal pumping.
I don't see how they could know in advance that I'm going to accelerate unless I tell them. Hence the sluggishness can not possibly be removed.
Unless you count flappy pedal gearboxes as automatics as well. Then yes, far superior to traditional manuals.
Mind you, even Formula E has a flappy pedal 5-speed gearbox despite being all electric.
I haven't driven a fully electric car yet, and I'm sure their power output is impressive, but I have driven hybrids and they were crap in terms of fun-to-drive.
That's the thing... any trace of that sluggishness is gone in a Tesla (or other quality electric). From the moment your foot starts moving even the tiniest amount on the accelerator, you feel your back being pushed into the seat. There is zero delay.
A comparison I thought of... It's the difference between pressure-sensitive touch screens and capacitive.
> I haven't driven a fully electric car yet, and I'm sure their power output is impressive, but I have driven hybrids and they were crap in terms of fun-to-drive.
Yep, hybrids are nowhere close to a Tesla. Go take a test drive, you'll see in the first few seconds what I'm talking about.
However, my mom's (fully-electric) Leaf is worlds apart. No matter how hard you step on the accelerator, it always responds immediately, fully, with seamless, continuous thrust.
A Tesla? I've never driven nor ridden in one, but I can only imagine it being like a launch-type roller coaster: immense, terrifyingly sudden acceleration.
The only way a manual can hope to compare is if you rev the engine and drop the clutch, which probably isn't something you do everyday.
You can learn to drive an automatic, just like you can learn to drive a manual. In mine, I just blip the throttle down a bit to force the car to downshift if I'm anticipating an overtake soon - it's something you learn if you drive long enough. Besides, I drive a car with an AMG 7-speed Dual Clutch transmission, where the shift takes fractions of a second - I could not possibly change that fast in a manual. No chance.
Probably not. Modern autos like CVTs don't actually even shift, not in the way that a manual or very old fashioned automatic. They can feel a little mushy, but on modern generation vehicles power is pretty instantaneous and about as continuous as you can get in a non-electric vehicle. They aren't "fun" though and tend to be built to maximize efficiency over speed or power. But they're mathematically more responsive than any manual could be and they're effectively always in the "right" gear, up/down shifting doesn't really make sense.
Other than the occasional rental or when riding in my friend's cars, and between our household cars and the occasional electric I've been in, I haven't felt a gear shift in a couple years. It actually feels a little alarming these days when you do feel one. Manuals are worse, they don't feel fun anymore, they feel like there's something mechanically wrong with the car.
Because of these qualities, most racing leagues have banned CVTs, since a performance oriented CVT would outperform any other shifting strategy in most kinds of racing. It was tried out by Williams decades ago for F1 and is said to have been astonishingly faster since it kept the engine in peak torque. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/03/banned-continuously-va...
http://www.rstreet.org/2014/07/15/the-twisting-tale-of-the-c...
But the industry is starting to move beyond CVTs now and direct drive is starting to hit cars. Teslas are like this, but even some consumer hybrids don't have any sort of gearing anymore. CVTs beat manuals for shift speed, but direct drive, because there's no such thing, beat CVTs. These are both the correct answer, manuals are some sort of weird vestigial technology that clings on because of all kinds of weird myths about performance and efficiency and notions about what's "fun".
I'll toss this out, a ludicrous launch in a Tesla is much more fun than any ICE engine transmission system.
Caveat: I am from Germany, have driven manuals all my life.
Every time I even drove a Citroen C-Zero shared car from Multicity for 10mins, getting back into a manual car -- even one of the nice CLA Mercedeses that car2go now offers --, feels like going back from the 21st to the 19th century.
"#Citroen c-zero vs #2CV which one is going to win?":
https://www.flickr.com/photos/65912627@N06/6892145177/
My money is on the 2CV.
In what ways can Tesla drive itself better in comparison to S class systems?