Aurora massacre survivors sued, and four ended up owing the theater $700k
latimes.com
latimes.com
Is expecting a movie theater to provide this level of security reasonable? Probably not - and the truth is that most reasonable folks wouldn't want this level of security at a movie theater. It is probably best left to law enforcement.
I understand these folks' lives have changed for the worst. I truly think they are entitled to have their medical bills and therapy and things covered. If they cannot work, I do think they are entitled to having income at their previous levels. But not by the theater.
And all along, this lawsuit had many failings. I find it amazing that a lawyer would take the case. I find it amazing that said lawyer, if he was not paid upfront, is not partially responsible for the other side's fees. (being paid upfront changes things, as he'd not really profit from the winnings). I find it weird that the case was allowed through and not thrown out earlier. I find it appalling that these folks aren't taken care of as I mentioned before - because I truly believe this stuff would lessen such lawsuits.
Such an odd world we live in.
I forget about those commercials, honestly. I remember a few from Indiana some years back, but disconnected from TV and switched countries since then (and that could affect my viewpoint). I don't view those folks well - but at least occasionally they wind up actually taking justifiable cases. Again, though, the safety net thing would render them unnecessary in many cases.
However the "good" lawyers in this case are also scumbags. On an open-and-shut case like this, in which the plaintiffs spent $22k on expert testimony, how is it reasonable for the defense to spend $500k? It isn't clear from TFA that defense expenses will have to be paid for the state-level suit, but if so most of that should be thrown out. If in fact the federal judge doesn't throw out most of the apparently >$700k federal expenses, the two explanations for that would be corruption (of course) and a fit of pique against the intransigent four for not respecting his authoritay.
Incidentally TFA is a mess. Why does it use the defense expenses for the state trial to calculate what the federal plaintiffs will have to pay?
Eh? do you know how many BS "Doctor" (MD, Ph.D. And Wannabe) sites, tv and radio shows, segments and infomercials that sell snaken oil (and in many cases simple snake poison) are out there?
Both physicians and attorneys are held to the standards of their profession both of them have code of ethic they have to follow, and both of them are liable for their actions. Just like physicians lose their licenses over gross misconducts attorney are disbarred all the time.
If an attorney can be proven to have acted not in the interests of client, not in good faith, was negligent etc. they can be sued for legal malpractice even if the bar does not investigates them directly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_malpractice
People can be selfish assholes regardless of their profession, there is nothing inherently more just or ethical in the actions of physicians over any other profession.
"Truth and Justice" do not exist out of context, these are meaningless terms even with applied arbitrarily to the legal system.
The most well known one, and the only one that most people know of, is that of negligence. If you do something negligence and that leads to harm, you should be held liable for the harm and have to pay to correct it or compensate the victims. If you were not negligent, then you should not have to pay.
In a liability system based on that justification, it would make little sense to hold a theater liable for a mass shooting unless they actually did something negligent that made them more likely than other places crowds gather to be chosen by the shooter, or if they did something negligent that made the shooting worse than it would have otherwise been (e.g., jammed cell phones which delayed getting help, or did not have enough emergency exits so people were exposed to the shooter longer than they should have been).
The negligence approach can work reasonably well. It does have a couple of problems, though. First is that it may be hard to decide who, if anyone, was actually negligent in a given case.
Another approach is to have a liability system based on the idea that parties should purchase insurance to compensate them from the damages from bad events. For a given type of bad event, the law under this approach would put liability on the entities that are in the best position to estimate the risk and determine the appropriate level of insurance coverage they need.
For consumer products, that would often be the manufacturer. So for instance you might make lawn mower makers liable for injuries from their lawn mowers, even if it is the consumer's stupidity that causes a particular injury (such as not stopping the mower before reaching under to clear a blockage). The mower company would then keep track of how often these injuries occur (something they would be doing anyway so that they can design safety feature to make it harder for people to do stupid things like that), and could buy the necessary insurance, passing the insurance costs on to its customers.
If it was left up to consumers to insure against sticking their hands under lawn mowers, you'd either have almost no one buying that insurance (who plans to stick their hand under a running lawn mower?), or it would have to be covered under their general medical insurance, and so would be slightly driving the cost up for everybody else. When it is the lawn mover company that has to buy the insurance, the people who hurt themselves with lawn mowers are only driving up the cost for other lawn mower users. The net effect is that you are somewhat narrowing the pool to the people who are actually more at risk.
Note that in this "liability based on who can best insure" approach, liability does not imply fault.
For mass shootings, the question then is whether it makes more sense for each individual to purchase insurance to cover injuries they receive in mass shootings, or for venues to purchase insurance that pays their patrons for injuries when those patrons are shot in a mass shooting at that venue. If the latter, then you make venues liable for shootings that occur there, regardless of whether or not they were negligent.
For any given type of venue or any given type of product, where liability should be placed in this kind of system depends on the details of the relevant industry and market. You probably want liability placed at some entity that will have the data and/or expert knowledge to figure out reasonably accurately how much insurance to carry.
Note that negligence based liability systems and best insurer based liability systems are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason you cannot do both. You can have a negligence based system applicable to everything, and also have a best insurer system applicable to things where this is some party who has the data and expertise to deal with the insurance.
Saying that you want a solution is very different from saying that you want that solution.
The majority of gun violence in the US involves handguns, and it doesn't involve expensive handguns, the glocks, sig's and 3000$ custom made 1911's aren't used, what are used are still old throwaways and cheap ass 200$ guns.
Rifles are rarely very rarely used, and modern "sporting" rifles are pretty much a unicorn they are only used in such tragic events as the one were discussing here but these events are not even a rounding error in the total number of casualties of gun violence in the US.
Which is why the "anti-gun" lobby is losing the "war" they fight all the wrong battles, look at the assault weapons ban it was utterly useless none of these weapons were ever used in gun crime or at least were any substantial percentage out of it.
Banning a gun because it has a muzzle break or a front grip is just asinine because they have absolutly no effect on the nature of the gun, and those gun as said do not appear on statistics. Then they went and banned guns by name like the "streetsweeper" which was a shotgun that not only that was never actually used in a crime in the US it was imported in extremely low numbers and was mechanically a faulty weapon - as it was utterly unreliable one would be hard pressed to fire a single drum magazine out of it (which contained iirc 10 rounds) without it jamming, it usually jamms on the 2nd or 3rd shots which often requires you to take out the magazine out completely.
It was banned because it looked cool, it appeared in late 80's hollywood movies and when some US company decided to import it from South Africa they gave it a "cool" name so the anti-gun lobby went after it, almost as if this was an intentional trap.
If the US is to do something about gun violence this has to be a multi layered approach attacking the heart of the problem from the crime especially in the impoverished black communities which are both the perpetrators and the victims of the majority of the violent crimes in the US.
Changing the public's opinion on gun rights and then doing the right thing and limiting it through a constitutional amendment as I am not fond of the idea of states "bypassing" the constitution, even if their intent is good it's not a good precedent.
But overall outside of rare incidents even in the US like this which is a mass shooting not related to criminal activity the gun violence in the US is part of a larger problem which is violent crime which is while it has been going down overall it actually has increased in some demographics, as ugly as it sounds if the violent crime rate which includes murder, armed robbery, assault etc. of the minority populations in the US would be the same as the white population it would decrease in virtually every major US city by about 90% bringing the total violent crime rate to rates similar in Europe and even lower than some EU member states.
So while going after guns might sound like a good idea, but in the long run it's futile, there are too many guns out there and it would not solve the underlying problem which is the violent crime rates in minority demographics in the US. Mainly the black and hispanic community which has to be addressed but due to the obvious toxic nature of this topic no one really wants to touch it, you are automatically painted as a racist, apologists, or a combination of both depending on what argument you are trying to make.
Also last time I've checked automatic weapons are illegal for civilians to own or carry in the US so no one is buying an Assault Rifle in the US unless they spend north of 30,000$ on a pre-ban firearm or have a license to make or sell firearms to law enforcement and military customers.
But that's aside you cannot shift the liability of an action to anyone but the perpetrator.
This infantile idea that some how some one can be liable for you own actions is not only morally bankrupt but is completely the wrong fight if you want to implement sane gun control in the US.
I am not American, I have no particular support for gun "rights" as I do not have them.
Any objection I might have to gun control activists in the US is due to their ideology tactics and methods rather than the goal at large.
I guess—if you could convince a judge that that's true. For most guns, I don't think they'd buy the hunting angle. The range angle, maybe, if only their messaging and advertising didn't imply something totally different. Remember, laws are evaluated by human judges, and they can see through totally transparent ploys.
Under no law, obviously. But you claimed that if it were, it would be comparable to holding IKEA responsible for someone using a knife in an attack, and I don't think that's an accurate comparison.
The automobile industry seems like a good parallel. Manufacturers can be liable for manufacturing defects, and seat belts and such are required. There are more advanced safety features available, but as far as I am aware, a manufacturer can't be held liable for injury simply for not including them.
Perhaps it's just an end-run around the 2nd amendment. That's the only way this policy has ever made any sense to me.
Interestingly, a widow of a smoker suing the tobacco companies is the plot of the 1996 John Grisham novel 'The Runaway Jury'. When it was made into a movie in 2003, the script was adapted to a widow suing gunmakers after a workplace shooting.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre...
You're making up terms.
> How is it ok it keeps happening and the manufacturer keeps profitting but not having any responsibility?
How do you expect to "hold someone responsible" for something over which they have no control?
> Cars are needed. Are AR-15s?
This is your opinion.
Another TSA at the cinema? No, thanks. We can't secure every step from mass shooting and/or terrorists attacks without making cities into the huge prisons. While our society functions normally and mass killings are very rare, there's no need to take additional security measurements. A much better way is to invest these money into mental health programs. So no, despite the alarmist tone on this article, the court ruling was sane and probably the best one in this case.
It's kind of unfortunate that people talk about gun control in association with incidents like the one in Aurora. More stringent control won't do much to stop motivated people from getting guns. What it will do is keep guns out of the hands of people who are suicidal or having a dispute with someone they know, both of which are much larger gun violence problems than random mass shootings.
It's also the case that most proposed measures would be pretty useless in combating random violence. Many proposals focus on meaningless cosmetic features and others ignore the rate of sustained fire that can be achieved with a modest amount of training. Without shifting the culture, I think you'd need incredibly strict rules to really do much in the US (like a ban on all pistols and semiautomatic guns, which would probably best be done by amending the Constitution).
You'll have to spell out in more detail which homicides you believe are justified and which are not if you want me to be able to respond to this in much detail. FBI statistics show that handguns are used far more often to win arguments than they are by gangs: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
But if you consider homicide a justified way to respond to an argument, there isn't much to say in response to your claim.
It's also interesting that you think I'm particularly a proponent of gun control. My interest is more in having a better debate about what meaningful gun control would be, I don't expect much change in US firearms laws any time soon. So above I point out that the incidents we pay attention to aren't the largest part of the problem, and I point out that the proposed responses to those incidents often aren't likely to accomplish anything.
I suppose my main thought is that gun control advocates should take a clear look at what they really need to advocate for and start advocating to amend the constitution. If they succeeded in passing an amendment, they would have a strong legal foundation for increased regulation and would have a pretty clear mandate to point at.
P.S. Gangsters get into arguments too.
You saying someone is "unfit to own guns" does not make it so.
This is appropriate. Individuals should not be deprived of their basic human rights without due process.
Adults since ancient man have been expected to be responsible for their own self-defense. But for some reason in modern day America, people think someone else is responsible for protecting them. Well they're not.
I'm curious if she rejected the settlement—and (presumably) stayed on the case—because she thought they would win? Or because she thought shooting victims owing the theater $700k would be a bigger black mark against Cinemark, than it settling for $150k?
A $150k settlement makes it sound like Cinemark wasn't at fault and they settled for a pittance to make it go away (which is true); having the shooting victims owe it $700k sounds like an injustice. I certainly doubt Cinemark wants the results of this case to be widely publicized. It's not like they're ever going to receive even a fraction of that $700k anyway.
I don't think there was any logic involved in her decision at all. I'm guessing that the unimaginable horrors that had been inflicted upon her and her family clouded her judgement. I feel really sorry for her, but I agree with the decision, and the law that led the judge to make it.
Yeah, probably. I guess I'd prefer to think that she knew what she was doing, but who knows. I can't imagine Cinemark is very happy with the results, since rather than the case going away quietly they got a $700k judgement they can't do anything with. But then insurance gets involved, and I'm not going to pretend I know that will work out.
Is it common for a judge to tell one party in a dispute which way he intends to rule, in advance of the actual ruling? That would seem to give that party an unfair advantage in settlement negotiations. The article doesn't say that Cinemark was given the same information in advance. Had they had that information, they wouldn't feel compelled to offer much of anything to settle the lawsuit, except perhaps for the sake of PR.
All plaintiffs agreed to settle for a share of $150k rather than face the prospect of paying the legal costs of the theatre. One plaintiff (who was one of the plaintiffs getting a larger share) refused the deal at the final minute which meant there was no settlement for anyone. The next day the judge found for the theater and costs were assigned to the plaintiffs. At which stage there were only 4 left on the case as the others had withdrawn so im not sure if the 700k was between all original defendants or the 4 remaining ones.
Unfair, because that "duty" would be almost exclusively levied on the most capable and productive members of society. If you think expert testimony is a social duty, then it should be imposed on the whole of society, by getting the State to finance it.
Why do we assume people who were just sitting in a theater where good people?
Why should they get to sue?
Do we realise what would have happened if they won.
TSA at theaters being needed to keep their insurance.
Theaters going broke.
The judge even gave them warning.
Bad things happen every day. A car accident is an awful thing.
Why do people get special preference the more media coverage they get.