Ask YC: Learning Web Development, were should I start? | Hacker News Reader

Ask YC: Learning Web Development, were should I start?

40 pointsgerman57 comments

Here's my problem, I know, HTML, CSS, and I'm already learning JavaScript. The thing is that I want to learn about server side programming, Python, Ruby, etc. But I also need to know DB like SQL. So where do I start?

View on HN

I had a similar issue a year or so ago. I tried to jump right in to a web framework, but I ran into a few problems. Like so much in the technology world, web frameworks grew in response to a certain set of problems. If you dive into web frameworks without having a least a rudimentary understanding of the problems that are being solved, you'll end up puzzled more often than not. So, when I picked up a bunch of Rails books, and started to work through them. So much of it was confounding, because so much of Rails is developed in response to problems in PHP + Java web development.

You could just say, "Screw it all," pick up a PHP book and dive in head first. You'll pick up some pretty bad habits along the way, but it depends on how you like to learn.

Here's a syllabus that I'd suggest to really get your head around web programming and understand what's going on:

HTTP--learn the basics of what the protocol does, and why. Learn the different response pages, because they are going to be your error messages.

Web servers--you just need a 100 ft overview. Learn how to setup and configure a web server.

Programming--You need to pick a language, Python or Ruby and learn how to at least do some basic programming with it. I'd recommend Python, personally. It's more explicit, and has less "magic". You probably need to understand variables, iteration or looping. You need to understand some basics of the object oriented programming concepts like methods, classes and scoping. And, if you're going to get into any of the web frameworks, you need to understand what things like a dictionary and array are. At least a basic understanding of regular expressions are necessary to learn Django's URL naming convention. The better you know programming itself, the better web developer you'll be, and more things will become possible for you to program.

CGI -- This is the ancestor to pretty much all dynamic web pages, and the foundation of most web development. Pick the language that you're learning, and go through some tutorials on CGI scripting for the language you're going to focus on. And, this will help you understand the basics of what goes on in the address bar, GET and POST methods of the HTTP protocol. You'll also get familiar with the idea of taking variables and inserting them into HTML templates dynamically, which is the basis of most web frameworks.

Learn SQL, and database basics. You need to understand what a database is, how to create a database, why databases are important, how to create and drop tables, how to do queries, etc... Having at least a basic understanding of relationships, foreign keys and constraints is helpful when reading some of the web framework documentation. You really should understand how to do a query in SQL, just so you can understand what the web framework is doing for you.

Finally, pick up a web framework, and start to work through it. After learning the above, learning the web framework will tend to make a lot more sense than if you dive into a web framework deep end first. Pick the framework that's most popular for your language, that way, you can be assured you will have plenty of documentation to work with. I'd recommend Django for Python, and Rails for Ruby.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Iterate through the above steps, and learn more and more each time you approach each subject.

+1 to write a couple of CGI scripts to get a feel for how pages are actually put together by the framework.

My personal experience is with Perl and Java, both of which are going the way of the dodo, or so it seems. So, I can't recommend any of them in good conscience.

But, whatever language you learn, I would first take some time to write some basic non-web programs. Once you are familiar with the basics of the language (variables, flow control, arrays, hash tables, etc.) then I would write some CGI-based web forms. That would give you an idea of how the basic functionality of a web site is chiseled from the primordial silicon.

Then, when you pick a framework you will know what is being abstracted and what parts of the web programming tasks are being streamlined.

Thanks a lot, you really understood my problem :) I don't want to learn PHP, now I have to decide if it's going to be Python or Ruby.

Can you please point me some of the information sources you used.

Thanks again.

Honestly, if you're going to make a serious study of the subject, I'd suggest an O'Reilly Safari subscription. For $15 a month, you get access to 10 books at a time. For $40 a month, you get access to their entire library. I'm not a shill for the service, I just really like the service. It's well worth the cash.

Online tutorials are good for a quick, down and dirty overview of a topic. But, if you're going to learn something a bit more in depth, I'd think that you're better off looking at a book. It's pricey, but it's worth it for me. I figure I'd spend $40 a month on tech books anyway. I'd might as well pay them and get the whole library as well as the Lynda.com video all at the same time.

Also, if you're really serious about it, I might consider finding a web database development class or certificate program somewhere. It might be slower going than you want, but you'll have a more complete understanding of the subjects once you were done.

Agreed - I would also recommend taking a class or two if you have the time. Decent community colleges will have many courses for web development ranging from beginner to intermediate. Studying and learning in a classroom environment has many benefits - Who knows, you might meet a few new friends and like minded folks as well!

Good Luck!

(PS: In the Bay area, foothill college is great, IMHO, for continued education)

Also, if you're taking classes, you may have free access to Safari and other ebook collections through the school's library.

If you do decide to go with Python, web.py (http://webpy.org/) is simple and you'll be up and running fast.

If you're interested in how it all works, dig into WSGI. And if you find that web.py is too low level, transition to Django after you have a feel for how web apps work.

Unfortunately webpy is poorly documented. Not good for a beginner. It is better for those people that know python well, and like to have absolute control of what's going on, and don't like the overhead of a large framework.

While webpy is small, I found myself often looking at the code, which has little commenting, to understand what's going on, or how to use a certain feature, mainly b/c the documentation is so lacking.

CherryPy might be a better choice.

I wouldn't spend too much time deciding between the two--they are more or less functionally equivalent, so just pick one and don't look back.

Python is a little more "corporate", with a little more regimented style (e.g. significant whitespace, PEP style guide - http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/). CherryPy is super-simple to get started.

Ruby is a little more "hacker", with a more idiosyncratic cast of characters such as DHH and _Why and a little more focus on coolness and tricks. Rails is the way to go, but you can get up and running with the basics with the Camping Framework in about 10 minutes.

You can try ruby with one of the great online interactive tutorials of all time here:

http://tryruby.hobix.com/

And from there you can start playing with Rails, which is a joy to use. I recommend starting with "Agile Web Development with Rails". I've only read excerpts from "The Rails Way" but it seems good, too.

Bottom line for me -- programming Ruby and building Rails apps is fun.

Out of curiosity, why don't you want to learn PHP?

Because I've seen PHP code and it looks too messy for me. Just my opinion.

Learn it with a framework, like CakePHP. Turns it into MVC programming like Rails or anything else.

> Turns it into MVC programming like Rails or anything else.

Why not then just use Django or Turbo Gears or Ramaze or Nitro then?

In the end, you have to live with the underlying language.

Blah, blah, blah. I think most of these recommendations are from 15-year-olds who just read about a cool web framework and are now spouting how damn good it is.

Anyone recommending a framework before someone understands web programming isn't someone I would hire. Frameworks are where you go when you finally get what is missing with your web programming language. It might take you years to get to that point.

Go with PHP. Period. People are going to blah, blah, blah about how PHP gives you bad habits, has bad function naming, ran off with their kid sister, whatever. PHP is a mess but it works. Name a webpage .php and you are good to get going. Try that with Ruby.

PHP is a tool that gets the job done and let's you quickly become immersed in web programming. If you don't know your GET from your POST, a great Ruby framework ain't gonna help you.

Once you get PHP figured out (and now are employable as a programmer?), try Python or Ruby out. They are gorgeous, elegant languages. I love using both of them. Then slap a great framework like Django or Merb on top. You'll love it.

But only after you get the basics down. I'm ashamed at you guys, really.

Before I got to this, I was wondering if anyone was going to mention PHP. I'm at the exact same stage as the OP and I'm just going with PHP (and learning MySQL simultaneously). I do want to play with Python eventually, but my first goal is to actually be able to find a job doing this stuff by the end of the year. Plus, even though every virtual human I run across has been programming RoR since 1963, everyone I know in meatspace uses PHP... and those are the people I'll be bugging for help.

Go to your local craigslist web/info design job page and run a search for PHP and count how many ads come up. Then run searches for Python and Ruby. That's enough help for me when it comes to making a decision.

As I said, PHP with a framework like Cake/Symphony/Zend and this entire argument between "php or no php" is null. I personally use cake and I must say you'll be going in seconds, and then you can move on to Ruby/Python, and then you can argue.

You already called this argument, but...

... if you can avoid PHP. It will do all those things mentioned above, and more and more Python and Ruby are becoming common.

+1 for content.

-1 for attitude.

We're even.

There's multiple things you want to learn:

1. How to program (hack) 2. How to hack on the web 3. How to create application databases for your web stuff

I suggest tackling each of these separately in turn if possible, starting with #1. Python and Ruby both make great beginner's languages.

Be goal-oriented. Once you know your way around a little, worry less about having the right technology and more about getting things done. Create something that you can use every day, like a blog, a calendar program, or something like that. Ignore all the "X is better than Y" talk on the Internet and just work hard on getting stuff done: that's all that really matters.

Ruby on Rails. I recommend following a screencast tutorial, like the ones at lynda.com http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=324

Sure rails hides a lot but it'll introduce you to some best practices, like the concept of MVC etc.

I agree. Rails is currently the way to go. It's much more mature than Django and has more flexibility and more mature gems/plugins.

Lynda tutorials are great. I'd also recommend free ones:

http://railscasts.com/

http://www.akitaonrails.com/2008/2/1/rolling-with-rails-2-0-...

And for-pay ones at http://www.peepcode.com

Also, grab "The Rails Way" book by Obie Fernandez (it's THE BEST book on Rails.. when you learn the basics, it's better than 'Agile Web Development with Rails') and "The Ruby Way" by Hal Fulton.

Rails is much more mature than Django? Please provide some sort of evidence surrounding that, instead of stating it as fact.

First, let's start with the languages they are based on, since performance and scalability depends on this. Do you feel Ruby is more mature than Python too?

For applications launching soon it's worth noting that Django is in a period of flux at the moment. Ver 1.0 is being actively worked toward and will break backwards compatibility.

I mean, no one is keeping you from working using Django .96, but several of the neater features in the platform (ContentTypes & Generic relations) are a little sketchy at the moment.

I'd disagree for someone unfamiliar with programming as the author seems to be. Ruby isn't a good starter language, IMO. It has a bit too much magic for beginners for my taste. It's absorbed a bit too much from Perl in that it's a lot easier to write than to read. When people are first learning a language, I'd suggest a language that has a little more structure to it than Ruby. That's why I suggested Python and Django.

I really don't have anything against Ruby and Rails. I really like the Rails framework and there's a lot of great stuff there. I just don't think that Ruby is a best first language to learn.

I'm going for Python. :)

I'll second the suggestion for "The Ruby Way" - it's under-rated and deserves more attention.

I've heard good things about "The Rails Way" but haven't yet had a chance to look at it.

Rails Way is pretty good (though someone borrowed my copy before I could spend much more time perusing it).

I also suggest The Ruby Way (though perhaps I'm biased); however, the Web dev section is dated. :(

I'd also recommend my book, RailsSpace (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0321480791), a tutorial introduction to Rails and part of the same Addison-Wesley Professional Ruby Series as the Ruby & Rails Way books. It's a bit dated in places (damn, Rails moves fast), but is much more pedagogically oriented than the Way books, and hence probably a better place for beginners to start.

"http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modPage.asp?ID=324"

Or---judging from the URL---just go for the technology these guys used, rather than the one they want to teach you.

Write a toy web server. It'll get you up to par with how the requests actually happen which is a good base for understanding CGI and the more complex systems.

He is just figuring out HTML. You are joking right?

Of course not.

It's practically requisite to understanding Rails or Django and is not so hard a project that you can't start to tackle it quickly (by reading any of the hundreds of simple web server tutorials online)

Reading through the source for a simple http server might be a good first step. srv.arc (the server that runs this site) is only 360 lines and is pretty readable without a deep understanding of Arc or Lisp.

I actually agree. I have been programming for the web for about 8 years now and looking back, I wish that the web server had not been such a mystery - it would have been helpful.

This seems to be the most asked question on YC, by far. This may be impossible (which would explain why it doesn't exist) but can someone put together the quickstart guide "Learning to Web Develop"?

1-2 page exec summaries of popular languages and the specific problems they solve. Include links to resources that explain things further. It would help to get a snapshot from 1000 ft. above the situation.

There is definitely a need here.

Thanks

Hi, I asked a similar question a month ago and got some great advice. Check it out: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=90782.

I think everyone else here has covered the specifics fairly well.

The best advice I can give is to remember that you're at the start of a long road. You need treat it as such. No matter how smart you are (or think you are), it will take you long time to learn everything you need. Persevere.

Err on the side of learning more than you need. You'll find later that knowledge will be useful. Be curious.

With a framework like Django, you don't really need to know SQL. It helps to understand the backend, but you basically design the tables based on Python classes. That's how I learned, it and it got me far enough to already launch tipjoy.com

I already knew a good amount of Python though.

djangoproject.com

My advice is to pick a language and go from there. Start with either PHP, Ruby or Python. Once you are comfortable with the inner workings of the language, then move forward with an agile development framework. Depending on which language you finally chose you will find open source frameworks for each:

Ruby: Ruby on Rail, Merb PHP: CakePHP Python: Django

I truly think that understanding the language itself will help a lot before jumping into the framework.

I'd start by coming up with a project, a goal. What are your interests? Gaming, sports, cooking, art? Decide to make something web-based that pertains to whatever interests you have. Doesn't matter if you're reinventing the wheel.

Now, start creating. Learn the necessary technologies as you go along, mixing in healthy doses of theory and best practices when you get the feeling there's a better way to do what you're trying.

It's hard to learn technologies in isolation, when they have no meaningful connection to problems you're solving. So give yourself an interesting challenge that can be overcome with the tools you want to learn.

If you're using automated tools along the way (installers, package managers, code scaffolding), consider doing what the tools do for you manually. Unravel things and get closer to the metal until you're satisfied.

Consider sharing the source code of your project with others. Maybe nobody will take notice, but it will give you motivation to make your code beautiful.

As far as specifics, Python strikes a nice balance among power, maturity, and marketability. MySQL is standard. Be sure to "unravel" your DB code into SQL without just relying on framework magic.

Deleted comment

Thanks, I'm aware that logic is an absolutely must. I do program but I'm not familiar with server side programming.

For me programming is all about Logic.

Something like Django or Ruby on Rails would be a good platform. "Unfortunately" it hides a lot from you so you won't get to see what's actually going on. Maybe try writing a few CGI's just to see what's physically happening to get a feel for that aspect of things.

Pylons and CakePHP are also quite good frameworks, if you're into that kind of thing, but I'd also suggest writing something simple in PHP (which is pretty much still the webdev language these days),

http://philip.greenspun.com/seia/

If you want to give Django a try, you might want to check out my simple tutorial:

http://www.instantdjango.com

It includes a portable Django development environment for Windows, no installation required, and it even runs from a USB thumb drive. The tutorial walks you through creating a simple website, and explains what is happening each step of the way.

The website is overdue for some updates, and I really need to finish writing the second chapter, but you might find it an interesting way to spend 45 minutes.

Spend some time on intro cs theory/topics - freelance PHP 'scripters' whose understanding of structured logic is abysmal are everywhere and they tend to start with HTML and go horribly astray.

SQL is a language that will take you half a day to learn and you will use it for the rest of your life. Since it varies from platform to platform you better pick the one you are going to use (Postgres, mySQL, etc.) -- Don't fall into those ORM which hides the database behind a "nice" api. for programming I would suggest you Python. The best place to start is by looking at http://webpy.org which is a compact yet robust web framework in Python.

good-luck

I recommend PHP, and SQL, using MySQL/PHP/Apache/Linux. For an editor, I recommend Bluefish. After that, go with Perl(Old style, but it has it's uses) and then Python. Ruby is the next step after that. W3Schools is a good place to start learning, but the best way to learn is by doing.

Thanks a lot, not it's time to start learning. I'll let you know how is it going. :)

Find an on-line tutorial that walks you through every step (including installing the software). Don't worry so much about which technology; you can always change. To get an idea of what I mean, here's one (you can google many others):

http://www.php-mysql-tutorial.com/

Here's another oldie, but goodie:

http://webmonkey.com/webmonkey/programming/php/tutorials/tut...

You didn't say which platform you're on, but you could save yourself a lot of trouble by installing an "all in one" LAMP distro, even on Windows.

PHP is the best web programming tool to start with!!!

I'm sure you'll get downvoted for that because of the l33t crowd here, but I'd have to agree that if you don't know conventional programming, a super straightforward language like PHP is better for learning web programming, as opposed to languages like Python/Ruby that are general purpose languages suited to programming.

You could also check out arc.

HTML

Join to some opensource project at sourceforge.net

Reply on news.ycombinator.com