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Comment by troncheadle | Hacker News Reader

Alright John Gault. If we're talking nation level, your startup is not a 'tentpole.' How does your market cap compare to GE, Google, Amazon, Lockheed? Those are redwoods, and there are plenty of those. You're a maple sapling, there are plenty of those too. You're doing that thing where the middle class rebels against their own interests by positioning said interests as the interests of the working class, because they see themselves as soooo much more driven, and hardworking -- get real, plenty of people living in poverty with the same hustle as you, they just grew up on the other side of Toronto without access to the same resources. Basic income doesn't come off the backs of small business, and that is a silly reason to be so afraid of it.

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The resources that I built my business on:

- a chair

- a table

- electricity

- any computer

- internet

- coffee (for food)

- bathroom

If you can bring your own laptop to a starbucks, they have plenty of the rest of those. A laptop can cost as little as 230$ USD, so thats really the only barrier and I beleive its an attainable goal for anybody in North America. If your life depending on having a laptop, thats something anybody could find.

My point is that business will leave. Those with the most means (Google, etc) would be out of the coutry by the end of the week! It would take longer for the small guys to pack up and move, but the point is that knowing how I would respond surely must be an attitude others have too. Just had to get that out there while we're talking about mincome yet again.

$230 extra above living expenses is not attainable without title loans or something similar for many in America.

Not to mention that if the laptop breaks you have to know how to fix it yourself or pay $100+ to fix it (or buy another new one for $230). If you don't know enough about computers to transfer data off a "dead" machine then you have to pay $100+ for someone to do that even with the new one.

You must be joking, I know an awful lot of americans with laptops. Its not like mortgaging a house!

And Im not talking about 'above living expenses'. When I bought mine I had no money for the electric bill. I leveraged the laptop purchase into paying that bill and many more after it!

You weren't as poor as some people I know then. Many of the people I'm talking about already can't pay their utility bills. Some of them don't have electricity because it was shut off. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work for others.

You don't know me or my situation so don't speak like you do. I bargained with collections to give me the time. I paid the electric bill with promises of “If you shut it off right now, I cannot earn the money to pay the bill, but if you keep the lights on I can work hard and pay in full (soon)”.

For months I had negative money in my bank account and a court order against me (collections for a credit card I had been buying groceries on and no longer had). So that means whenever I did make any money, the instant I put the cheque into my account to cash it - it was gone. I still couldn't buy groceries even if you put a cheque for $5000 in my hand at some points.

I got by and survived. Dropped 70 pounds from not eating right, but you're right, perhaps I wasn't poor as some folks you know, so therefore my experience hasn't been my experience.

My point isn't to invalidate your experience, but to invalidate your idea that since you worked hard and made it through everyone else is able to do the exact same thing.

Regardless of all the other points brought up, what if they just have a lower than average intellect? That'll stop them in their tracks too. Regardless of anything else, it requires at least an average intelligence to be able to learn things on your own/with marginal help.

Pretending that -anyone- can do what you did is a disservice to yourself(because you are marginalizing all the hard work you put in, I read your other comment) as well as people who for whatever reason are just not capable of doing the same thing.

Ok, I'm replying to you down the chain a bit because this is a great example of you just not getting it at all.

Do you have a college education? Did you go to a good high school? Do you have motivated peers? Growing up, did you have enough food to eat every day and every night? Do you have two loving parents? Or even one? Did you have a roof over your head every night? How many times did you change houses, schools, districts?

These and more are the factors out of the individual's hands that can severely negatively impact their ability to grow up and become successful.

You didn't 'just have a laptop and a desk.' You had a laptop, a desk, an education, a stable upbringing. MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THOSE THINGS AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAP. Again -- MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET THOSE THINGS AND THAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAP.

This comment I am replying to is just the worst kind of ignorance -- no, dude, there are SO many people in this country that can't afford a laptop. And if they could -- do you know how fucking expensive it is to learn to code??? You need one of 3 things -- 1: lots and lots of free time 2: a $50k education 3: an exceptionally great free public education ( I say exceptionally great because <20% of american schools teach coding).

I'm not going to be that commenter that just says 'ugh google privilege and you'll get it.' You had privilege in excess, and now you have ignorance in excess. You need empathy and humility. I'm honestly disgusted by your comments. The kids I work with every fucking day don't have half the shit you grew up with and it makes ALL of the difference in their lives.

> Do you have a college education?

Yes! I couldn't afford fancy schools so I did community college for 3 years and paid my own tuition. Total cost <$10k and I had government loans for it that I'm still paying off 7 years later…

> Did you go to a good high school?

I went to an okay high school. It was 1/3 hilbillies from the country, 1/3 rich city folks from a nearby town, and 1/3 lower middle class folks who lived in the country. I was part of the last group.

> Do you have motivated peers?

HELL NO! We called the place where I grew up the 'death trap' because if you don't get out of there before you're 20 years old, your life amounts to nothing. You have to escape the gravitational pull to become nothing and break free.

> Growing up, did you have enough food to eat every day and every night?

Yes, we lived a very frugal life and my parents made 2 things their priority: food, and clothes. We didn't have TV, we didn't have a pool, we didn't buy pop (soda), we didn't have cool desserts in our lunches, we didn't have trendy clothes, we went without a lot of stuff my friends on welfare were able to afford because my parents were working hard to provide for us without welfare. Sometimes I wonder if welfare would have afforded us a better lifestyle, but my parents work ethic would not allow them to stop trying.

> Do you have two loving parents?

Yes, and I think there's more value in that than most want to admit. I believe a lot of the 'economic' problems we see in society are strong evidence of what fatherlessness looks like in a generation or two of people.

> Did you have a roof over your head every night?

Yes

> How many times did you change houses, schools, districts?

I changed schools (at my request) due to harassment my Grade 3 teacher, new school was in a different town.

> do you know how fucking expensive it is to learn to code???

Sure, it costs $0. I do it every day! That's been my saving grace :D I'm so excited that I was able to do this with such few tools that I am ready, willing, and in a place where I want to HELP others learn code :D

I already volunteer my time, money, and labour to help people learn the skills I've picked up, and if I could find a way to turn that into my job I would be thrilled!

> You had privilege in excess, and now you have ignorance in excess. You need empathy and humility. I'm honestly disgusted by your comments. The kids I work with every fucking day don't have half the shit you grew up with and it makes ALL of the difference in their lives.

You know, this whole time you're attacking me but I'm also the guy going wayyyyyyy outside his own comfort zone to get in front of others and help them learn. I think you've got me pegged wrong.

Soo I tell people: “This is what I did, I can show you the ropes and help you figure it out for yourself too!” and for $230, if I saw somebody was serious about learning I wouldn't think twice about affording the tool FOR them. I want to teach others how to build their own earning power and make a living (helping others) - so if it's TRUE that my success is only due to my privilege I may as well quit helping people now right?

Why bother investing in others, teaching them, helping them if all that effort is wasted because only privilege bring success.

Do you really believe that? I'm going to continue helping others because I sure don't!

> I think you've got me pegged wrong.

You're right, I definitely did. Sorry about the assumptions and thanks for furthering the discussion despite that.

I also seem to be misunderstood -- I don't think that your success is only due to your privilege. I see that positioning a lot and it is a dangerous way to think. I think your privilege had a hand in your success, not that it is entirely responsible for your success. I also think that basic income is a way to give that privilege to a wider swath of the population without taking away opportunity from other people.

I think that basic income is a good strategy to lift the norm so it's not so necessary to be a mold breaker to build a high quality of life from impoverished beginnings -- raise the baseline and I think we give more people a chance at success.

Grace is definitely a factor to consider.

The question I have is: should someone be required to work in order to live reasonably well?

One entrepreneur, JK Rowling, is worth USD 1 bil. She did not require many resources to attain this; a savvier setup could have allowed digital-only publishing. Value can literally be created from the mind.

Given this, should it not be an acceptable profession in society to provide mind-workers the space and time they require to produce works unique to them? Should they not have comforts if required?

Can not any individual create in such capacities, and is it not only our fear and reliance upon the tales of a dark history and historical slogans which keep us from thinking the problem through to completion and from the very consideration that such new ways of working are indeed possible at a civilization scale? Are we afraid of success?

- A position as a first class citizen in a tremendously wealthy industrial country that got that way by stealing resources and enslaving native populations for centuries, presumably

What exactly is a first class citizen? Care to explain?

'First class citizen', while not really used outside of programming, was likely meant in contrast to a 'second class citizen.'

"A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or legal resident there." - Wikipedia

He's saying you probably did not suffer much at all because of systemic discrimination, and pointing out the glaringly obvious -- that you don't realize that majority of the people in this country DO suffer because of systemic discrimination.

How are you so sure that I'm not part of the majority that faces systemic discrimination? I can tell you right now if I had applied to university in the same town I went to college in I would be discriminated against - I don't match the race or gender of the average student in my town if that's what you mean…

> How are you so sure that I'm not part of the majority that faces systemic discrimination?

Lucky guess.

Where are they gonna go, Greece? Apple is already in Ireland.

You're assuming giant consumer countries are obligated to just passively let equally giant multinational corporations just do whatever they want. If Apple wants to live in Ireland, let 'em sell exclusively to Irish people. If they'd like to move to Greece, let 'em build an infrastructure there since the Greek government plainly can't.

It's a symbiotic relationship and entities like Apple and Google know that far better than you do. They'd like to get absolutely as much as they can so long as they're not on crumbling sand foundations, and the less headstrong corporations don't even care about that; they'll just lobby for zero or negative taxes for themselves, even if it wrecks the markets they're in.

Business will not leave. There's literally nowhere for them to go: they're already everywhere.

The fact that you replied to "without access to the same resources" with a list of physical needs seems to show that you really don't appreciate the disadvantages lower income people face. A laptop is fairly useless without the knowledge/education of what to use it for. Having time to go to a Starbucks is difficult for anyone with kids and without the money for daycare. Furthermore, the fact that you think everyone lives near a Starbucks is pretty illustrative of your privilege

> Furthermore, the fact that you think everyone lives near a Starbucks is pretty illustrative of your privilege

I didn't say "everybody can do it because everybody has a starbucks" I just gave one example of type of place that provides many of those resources free of cost. Name 3 coffee shops in your town that don't have electricity?

So here's a slightly more complete list for those who can't extrapolate:

- libraries often have electricity, bathrooms, wifi, chairs, and tables

- mall food courts often have electricity, chairs, and tables, many have wifi

- cafés, restaurants, and pubs nearly always will have some kind of seating and tables (correct me if I'm wrong)

- friend's houses come with electricity more often than not

- many schools are open to the public that you could probably just walk in and sit in the cafeteria and get some work done

I know some people live in amish country and don't have access to electricity, but I believe most North Americans are 'on the grid' so to speak.

On somewhat of a tangent...

The difficult circumstances of your life drove you to work hard, to hopefully succeed, to be a better person, to become who you are today.

But did it/should it have to be that way? Did it have to be so hard?

Maybe. Maybe not. I wish it didn't have to be that way - for anyone.

But such difficulties in life are what make our accomplishments so spectacular...

My comment is not an argument that access to electricity is impossible and you reiterating physical needs seems to suggest you missed my point. That last sentence was only pointing out that you happened to pick as an example the name of a particular chain that (not unlike many other coffee shops) tends to exist in more urban and more affluent neighborhoods.

Opportunity is not evenly distributed, yes. But neither is skill.

> Basic income doesn't come off the backs of small business, and that is a silly reason to be so afraid of it.

What's the name of your business?

> Opportunity is not evenly distributed, yes. But neither is skill.

Skill can be learned with enough drive. Opportunity is required for success, there's plenty of smart, skilled people in the world who are stuck in the workforce because of lack of it.

Malcom Gladwell's book "Outliers" is a good read on the effect opportunity (or the lack thereof) has on our lives. It can come off as pretty over simplified and anecdotal so don't take my praise of the book as me touting it as something it's not, but it's worth reading (and I rarely say that of required texts from courses I've taken).

That's just willfully ignorant. For majority of people, differences in opportunity are SO much more influential in their lives than differences in skill or intelligence.

Consider three kids -- one is rich, suburban white, IQ is 170. The other is rich, suburban white, IQ is 75. The third is poor, inner city black, IQ 170.

In this situation, which lives do you think look most similar to one another? If you answered 'obviously the white kids', then great! You get it. If you answered 'the two kids with an IQ of 170' then you need to spend some time in the real world.

Let's add kid #4 -- poor, black, inner city, IQ 75. If we want to compare across QoL, opportunity, really almost any metric, we're going to group across socio-economic lines, not IQ.

If you find yourself thinking 'Well what if that young black kid catches a lucky break and gets out of poverty' you're almost there -- the need to catch a lucky break to escape is a defining aspect of poverty and it works against even the most naturally skilled people. The amount of skill needed to overcome that lack in opportunity makes it silly to bring skill into the equation when talking about opportunity.

Really, come on. That kind of 'they can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps' is ignorant enough to sound like dog whistling.

> If we want to compare across QoL, opportunity, really almost any metric, we're going to group across socio-economic lines, not IQ.

Do you have any academic literature to support your claim? The only evidence you offered was just an insistence that I should agree, which shouldn't convince any fair minded person. Here's something that I found within 15 seconds of journal searching, that contradicts it: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-1130.2011....

> The results from a series of follow-up studies indicate that the IQ score at age 13 could be viewed as a relatively good indicator for future life outcomes, defined in terms of attained education, occupational status, and material well being

Finally:

> Really, come on. That kind of 'they can just pull themselves up by the bootstraps' is ignorant enough to sound like dog whistling.

I don't think we can, and I don't think I said anything like that.

Also, what's the name of your business?

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