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Comment by AndrewKemendo | Hacker News Reader

It's more of a neurotic addictive compulsion and ego seeking behavior than something that is desirable as a sense of fulfillment. These neurotic addictive behaviors (checking social sites, compulsively reading random things, chewing tobacco, drinking alcohol, sleeping) dominate most of my non-mandatory, un-allocated time. Everything else is just a yawning void of nothing, including my wife and 3 kids. Not for lack of trying (Open Water SCUBA License, Private Pilots License, Skydiving license, Hit 100 some odd countries traveling, Competitively Cycled/Ran etc...).

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Try getting good at something you're bad at, like, for example, appreciating your life and the lives of those around you. "Yawning void of nothing" is a pretty hilariously inaccurate description of a family and all the life experiences you describe.

I would experiment with the hypothesis that perceiving value and experiencing it as such are skills you lack but others possess, that may be improved through deliberate practice.

I would experiment with the hypothesis that perceiving value and experiencing it as such are skills you lack but others possess

No experimentation necessary, it's blatantly clear that's the case.

that may be improved through deliberate practice

Perhaps. Or maybe it's just trying to distract yourself from reality through what are commonly accepted "values." Hard to know. I read all those studies about "happiness" coming from great relationships, and family etc...

None of them question why happiness is a virtue - it's as though it's implied that hedonism qua epicureanism is preferential. That's what I can't get past.

One could look at it as a loss or lack of a sense - would incredibly tasty food seem all that worthwhile to someone with no taste buds? Does the fact that people can taste good food mean they will automatically become obese?

Could you please expand on the last paragraph? I think about happiness a lot lately, and it seems like you have some intetesting thoughts.

There is an unending amount that has been written about measuring happens and finding happiness etc... All of it seems to boil down to what I would consider "hedonism with a mortgage." The focus is on "lasting happiness" with relationships and experiences being there paramount, and de-emphasizes material accumulation and intoxication.

Nothing ever asks the question "why be happy anyway?"

Seems like it's as bad of a goal as any, but it's how our biological systems create action.

Teenagers ask banal but seemingly profound questions like this all the time. The answer is "because it feels better than not being happy."

You can really overthink this stuff pretty easily

That answer isn't compete though and assumes too much.

It's a cynical answer under a cloak of "experience." Might as well just say, because god wants us to be happy.

I always defined "being happy" as being satisfied. And being satisfied can be defined as "being the way you want to be". So in that sense I think happiness IS a kind of ultimate goal. I may have stretched the definition of happiness a little, though.

Andrew, you're fine. I'm going to guess that you're American as America is the most happy-obsessed culture in the world in my experience.

Happiness as virtue is not universal, maybe you need some more time abroad. I know you said you visited 100 countries but visiting 100 countries and living in another country for many years is quite a different thing. Or maybe you just need different friends or perhaps a meditation practice, I don't know.

I'll leave you with this 2 minute video from Slovenian philosopher Slavoj Žižek, "Why Be Happy When You Could Be Interesting?": https://youtu.be/U88jj6PSD7w

> as America is the most happy-obsessed culture in the world in my experience.

Yup. I blame their constitution.

That's the Declaration of Independence you're thinking of, I believe.

Right, my bad.

> as America is the most happy-obsessed culture in the world in my experience.

You haven't met a lot of French people :-)

Chesterton wrote about the folly of globe-trotting:

"The globe-trotter lives in a smaller world than the peasant. He is always breathing, an air of locality. London is a place, to be compared to Chicago; Chicago is a place, to be compared to Timbuctoo. But Timbuctoo is not a place, since there, at least, live men who regard it as the universe, and breathe, not an air of locality, but the winds of the world. The man in the saloon steamer has seen all the races of men, and he is thinking of the things that divide men — diet, dress, decorum, rings in the nose as in Africa, or in the ears as in Europe, blue paint among the ancients, or red paint among the modern Britons. The man in the cabbage field has seen nothing at all; but he is thinking of the things that unite men — hunger and babies, and the beauty of women, and the promise or menace of the sky."

- http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/heretics.iii.html

If you're talking about studies in psychology and why they perceive happiness as such, it's because they're not philosophers. They're merely trying to learn things about something that is actually important, even if not the full picture of what is important. Because that's what their method allows them to do effectively.

Hey man, I feel the exact sane way. Though I usually don't care enough to actually get Licenses and stuff, because I don't give enough of a damn to get them.

I've done tons of extremely stupid things just to do them, but I genuinely don't care or really give a shit. They're just "things" that I've done. I've never really understood how people genuinely enjoy things like skiing, hiking, skydiving. Ive done them just fine and meh.

.. exactly - you have done them just fine - but have you tried getting good at any of those activities ? I ski and jump competitively (on the bush league level) and I can honestly say that I did not enjoy either until I devoted a shitload of time and money to get decent .

The thrill-seeking and "yawning void of nothing" are a bit concerning. Have you ever looked at the criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-per...

Please don't try to diagnose people on the Internet.

I agree strongly that trying to diagnose people of the internet is unhelpful behavior. However, from the tone of Andrew's comments on this page, it would seem he is interested in improving the quality of his experience of life by seeking greater self understanding. I take the parent comment as merely the offering of yet another possibly helpful direction of inquiry for Andrew, and not an attempt to diagnose.

Can you imagine what it's like to be on the other side of you?

I don't know you, and I wouldn't presume to know anything about you other than what you've revealed in your comments, but what I can say is that you've been handed enough lego blocks to build anything you want to, and it seems like you've set them aside because they're not the specific blocks that you had in mind to build the thing that you envisioned at some point in the past.

No one automatically receives happiness. But you have an obligation to work on yourself, to do better than you seem to be doing, at building a happy self out of the life that you've made. That obligation is a result of choices you've made to build a family. Like it or not, you owe it to your wife and children to do the extra work of finding the meaning and sense of significance that is absolutely there waiting to be uncovered by you, and put to use by you.

All of the extrinsic life experiences you've mentioned in your comments do not entitle you to wait for something to click, to be more than a 'yawning void of nothing'.

If what you're talking about is something that you face no matter how many good, wise, smart moves that you make, then you may need to face the reality that you need treatment for depression or some other issue.

No amount of travel or physical trials that you've put yourself through can supplant the reality that you can build for yourself by simply looking inward. In fact, it seems as though by constantly abstracting the search into various physical or worldly concerns, you've done the opposite.

Happiness and fulfillment are moving targets. Personally, I suspect that I may never get all the way there. But I've spent some time on the road you're describing, and I know it's a dead end road. It's ego, it's self-indulgence, it's blame, it's a withering loneliness that makes you a small island, one that can be described in just a few seconds with cliches, easily traversed by foot, and forgotten or ignored by others.

Whether or not you're clinically depressed, you should probably work on the quality of your relationships. Are there people that you can authentically connect with? If not, find them. They're out there. Are there people with whom your connection leaves you feeling bad or more isolated? Get rid of them. Are there people that you keep trying to connect with but it doesn't happen? Stop trying, and refocus your energy on authentic connections. Are there superficial connections that satisfy some social or validating urge that you have? Figure out whether your relationships with those people can be evolved into authentic, meaningful connections or not, and work on the good ones and discard the bad ones.

It's an absolute tragedy to waste all of the time and beautiful experiences and memories that you could be accumulating with all of the people in your life, for lack of addressing a few relatively simple and totally fixable issues.

This was an awesome response, and piece of writing.

Oh, yea those close to me hate it. Everyone else seems fine cause they only see the professional side, so as far as they know, everything is just A OK Great!

Not only family but I have a high stress business to run and people counting on me! Thanks for taking the time to write that out though.

In reality, all you write is correct generally. This wasn't intended to be a mini-therapy session, but for what it's worth the same message you state: "Happiness comes from inside" has been repeated to me literally as far back as I can remember. It's not practical though.

I've had probably a dozen therapists over the years, found mentors I looked up to, tried to find meaningful relationships with peers, studied what fulfillment is etc...A few years ago I came to the conclusion that searching for "happiness" in all of these things was just not working. And beyond that the fact of the search turning up dry is a compounding problem.

I'm not sure what happened, but as Rodney Dangerfield called it "The Heaviness[1]" is getting bigger.

But I've spent some time on the road you're describing, and I know it's a dead end road.

I'm curious what "road" that is?

waste all of the time and beautiful experiences and memories that you could be accumulating

Is there value in accumulating experiences? I mean I've accumulated a shitload of them, the problem is there isn't anything to do with them. It's like saving Polaroids. Is there a reason to other than looking at them again for a serotonin bump?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zdjYmhrA-A

I'm grappling with similar questions, and have been my entire adult life. It feels like an unending existential crisis. I think both your comment and the parent comment (which are both very thoughtful, btw) pose an interesting question: is 'happiness' a meaningful or worthwhile goal? For me, at the current moment, I think not. The notion of happiness seems almost incomprehensible to me, to be honest.

The way you've described your life reminds me of a book I've (partially) read: Mindfulness in Plain English. Even if you think Buddhism and meditation are a bunch of malarkey, the book itself is worth a read. What specifically comes to mind are parts where the author discusses why one should bother with meditation:

...you are human. And just because of the simple fact that you are human, you find yourself heir to an inherent unsatisfactoriness in life which simply will not go away. You can suppress it from your awareness for a time. You can distract yourself for hours on end, but it always comes back--usually when you least expect it. All of a sudden, seemingly out of the blue, you sit up, take stock, and realize your actual situation in life.

There you are, and you suddenly realize that you are spending your whole life just barely getting by. You keep up a good front. You manage to make ends meed somehow and look OK from the outside. But those periods of desperation, those times when you feel everything caving in on you, you keep those to yourself. You are a mess. And you know it. But you hide it beautifully. Meanwhile, way down under all that you just know there has got be some other way to live, some better way to look at the world, some way to touch life more fully...

...you suffer from the same malady that infects every human being. It is a monster in side all of us, and it has many arms: Chronic tension, lack of genuine compassion for others, including the people closest to you, feelings being blocked up, and emotional deadness. Many, many arms. None of us is entirely free from it. We may deny it. We try to suppress it. We build a whole culture around hiding from it, pretending it is not there, and distracting ourselves from it with goals and projects and status. But it never goes away. It is a constant undercurrent in every thought and every perception; a little wordless voice at the back of the head saying, "Not good enough yet"...

Maybe the Buddhists have got it right. Perhaps the more worthwhile goal is cultivating a clear and unbiased perception of reality. Honestly, I have no clue; just putting forward an alternative to consider if you haven't already. If you do figure it out, I'd love to know...

Here's a link to the book btw: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm

EDIT: reading firstworldman's sibling comment provoked another thought which may head off a semantic issue. Maybe 'happiness' is neither a meaningful nor meaningless objective; it's simply an ill-defined, subjective concept. So when people talk about 'attaining happiness', its possible what they mean by 'happiness' is objectively different to what other people think it is. From what I understand firstworldman to be saying, he has found 'authenticity of experiences and relationships' to be a worthwhile and attainable goal. Incidentally, this seems to square with Buddhist philosophy, which is largely concerned with attaining 'perception of authentic reality' (i.e. 'enlightenment').

When things are hard, it's often because either a) it's new, or b) because we're trying the 'wrong' way.

When something is hard and you can't manage to get the desired result no matter how hard you try, consider that rather than to keep working 'hard', you just try something different.

I know you haven't (and couldn't, on this forum) encapsulated the breadth of all of the things you've tried to overcome this lack of meaning that you've been experiencing throughout your life. But, and please forgive me if I'm oversimplifying your search, it seems pretty clear that you've been looking in the wrong places. Trying something different doesn't necessarily mean trying a different activity, or finding a new thrill, or a new drug, or anything like that. Put simply, it means try doing something that you wouldn't otherwise do.

When you say that the people around you hate it, that's what I'm getting at when I say, 'Can you imagine what it's like being on the other side of you?' Are you giving the people close to you the access and information they need to help you? Do they know you need their care? Do they know what things they do that give you energy, and what things they do for you that are demotivating and de-energizing? Simply giving them access to 'where you're at' can do a lot to empower them to help you. You can't get through this alone. You need to do everything you can to let them know that you're working on it and that they can help.

When you say that 'everyone else seems fine', that's a symptom of the lack of authentic connections in your life. If you're like most of the people on this forum, it's possible you spend a likely unhealthy amount of time working. That makes it crucially important that you have some professional relationships that can help fuel you to do the best work you can do (for the sake of your own business, your own sanity, and just generally making the world a better place by being easy to work with), and to get through the business of being a human being within the constraints of our economy. I don't know what business you're in, but I would be shocked if you couldn't improve it by being better connected to the people you're working with.

Whatever is stopping you from improving those connections, whether it's introversion, a sense of superiority, or simply being a low-friction provider of a minimal interaction service, just be aware that there are steps that you can take to make those connections stronger. There is not nothing you can do.

The fact that happiness comes from the inside is so easily written off by so many people is a persistent and vexing concern. Think of how much you contain, honestly. Within you is all of the pain and all of the joy of every Russian novel, every bit of the dazzling, puzzling, frustrating and ecstatic complexity of every single film, poem, painting, song, etc, ever made. The degree of difference between you and me and every other human being is infinitesimally small if you zoom out just a little bit. So, if someone else is able to apply that idea that happiness originates from within, so can you. I hate myself for writing things that contrived, but it's true. For what it's worth, you may have to take someone at their word that they were able to build happiness just with what was contained within them. Trust it. It's true. Set aside the practical dilemma of working it out in steps that can be described to fit your life, and understand that it's possible.

You mention having a dozen therapists. That sucks to go through that many therapists and not find 'the one', but please keep searching. It's the same with mentors. The compounding problem of trying to attain happiness and to have massive amounts of real effort turn up little reward is a huge and understandably discouraging one.

Despite the absurd and self-aggrandizing length of this reply, I have no answers and no wisdom that couldn't be more succinctly expressed through common idioms. The only thing I can offer is my own experience, and to vouch for the experience of some people I know that were able to slough off the feeling of torpor and malaise that can set in when hopelessness comes easier than hope.

Your Rodney Dangerfield example is well appreciated. The best comedians give us the pain of the world wrapped in a bow. I have found that in my own life, I get both much happier, and also experience much more sadness and even depression as I open more and deeper connections with other people, and with the world at large. In general, you just feel more. That is one of the beautiful (and obvious) things about connecting with others... you get to feel more.

The 'road' that I mentioned sharing with you was probably a bit presumptuous on my part... the road that I was talking about was basically my own history of trying to obfuscate my needs and feelings with more-than-casual drug and alcohol use, believing that the reason 'things' weren't 'happening' had mostly to do with people/influences/circumstances/other factors outside my control, which led to blame and avoidance and some bad stuff that comes along with those things.

Your example comparing the accumulation of experiences/memories with saving Polaroids is concerning because, sure, collecting Polaroids is a bit boring if they're all the same picture, but ideally they shouldn't be. But anyway the analogy doesn't really work, because the important factor is not that they 'happened', but instead that they accumulate, which leads to deeper connections, new connections, etc.

Sorry in advance for the ridiculous length of this post.

I genuinely believe that people find meaning and contentment in themselves.

That helps me as much as asking me to breathe water, or see infrared though.

Those deep relationships you speak of; when trying to have these kinds of conversations the response is mostly "I don't know what that's like so I really can't help, sorry." Or you say, ok I need your help by being patient, but that only goes so far for so long, and then for their sake you just start faking it or maybe not just faking it but at least not dwelling on it, ask again everything looks just fine.

To extend the comedy analogy, very introspective comedians discuss this frequently. Marc maron, garry Shandling, Bill Murray etc... have all discussed (all with Charlie rose Incidentally) their impossible yearning for self actualized contentment only to not find it. I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.

In any case, good luck. It sounds like you put a lot of work in on this, so I hope you keep doing that.

Charlie Rose interviews with comedians (specifically the types that you're referring to) are one of my favorite things to fall asleep to.

If I may add 2cents: It sounds like you're potentially depressed, or just happen to be a nihilist.

This is not necessarily bad. It can, in fact, be a virtue. With true nihilism, comes true freedom to do anything. Right now happiness is the greatest unifying force in our society. Everyone has to be happy. It's a dictum you listen to from birth to death. Be happy. Acquire things. Do this, do that, give us money, spend spend, make more, spend more. It will make you happy. And you want to be happy because we all told you that happiness must be your ultimate goal in life.

Fuck that. There's no need to be happy. Do whatever you want.

As the great Keanu Reeves once said: "You need to be happy to live, I don't"

There are two forms of nihilism, active and passive.

Passive nihilism can be found in Schopenhauer, Zen, Buddhism, Vedanta, detachment from the self and the fulfillment of idle fantasies [desire]. It is related to a monastic/ascetic lifestyle and can be very hard to deal with or fully espouse when one lives an active life inside modern western society (too many distractions).

Active nihilism is best described by Nietzsche, in his concept of the Ubermensch or the Antichrist. This is a strong individual who creates and projects his own morals, imposing his own Will upon the world whilst living his own life as a work of art. John C. Lilly's concept of metaprogramming and various mystical "systems" can also be seen as forms of this discipline.

>I've had probably a dozen therapists over the years

Writing this as someone who went through SCUBA training (but never took the open water dive) and also went through an intensive private pilot training course (but never went on the check ride), I feel a sort of kinship here.

Have you tried CBT or REBT? (REBT has the word "rational" right in it).

The premise is that our thoughts can sometimes put unreasonable demands and pressure on us which results in nasty emotional consequence. You can give REBT a test drive via a few sample chapters from a reputable author here: http://threeminutetherapy.com/my-book-three-minute-therapy

Another useful book is: How to Refuse to Make Yourself Miserable about Anything: Yes Anything! https://www.amazon.com/Refuse-Yourself-Miserable-about-Anyth...

Then there's meditation. It's not all yoga pants and spiritual mumbo jumbo. I've described a simple method here: https://medium.com/@John_Chacho/engaging-the-senses-to-quiet...

These aren't magic solutions. My brain resists this stuff with ninja-like elusiveness, but when I remember to practice it, it does steady my outlook and behavior.

In short, the various CBT methods combined with meditation can turn the confrontation with the "yawning void of nothing" into a peaceful, sometimes even joyful experience.

I would refrain from using CBT as an acronym. Urban dictionary could explain why.

CEBT from now on it is. Though DBT is worth a mention too and it's not all that different from what's described on Urban Dictionary.

Actually my last therapist starting working through some CBT exercises with me before suggesting we go to a neurofeedback approach. Unfortunately I moved and that provider was unavailable after that so I haven't had time to get back into it. I found CBT to bee mostly the same stuff as everything else in the "self actualization" category.

It's really not about self actualization though. I think your therapist may have been a CEBT/REBT dabbler.

The authors of the REBT books I mentioned are at odds with most everyone other type of therapy. One of the books strongly critiques psycho analysis (searching one's past for psychological wounds) and concepts like AA. For this reason (being at odds with other therapies) the authors recommended therapists that specialize in cognitive behavior therapy alone to get the maximum benefit. Again there are slightly different therapies: CBT, CEBT, REBT, DBT - I don't make a distinction that I probably should.

In essence it's about getting in the habit of talking to your brain, interrupting a thought that can easily become a habitual pattern, and disputing what one thinks by default. It's a search for evidence for the thoughts we believe without question because they come from our own brain.

In a conversational sense it's a bit like separating yourself from your thoughts and telling your brain: "That's an interesting thought. It's ridiculous because there is no evidence to support it and it's self-defeating because all it does is harm my mood - but it's interesting. In all the ocean of thoughts that are available you bring me that? How about you go back to the well and bring me something constructive, positive, or at least funny. I don't have time for nonsense."

What I find useful - and again I've only read books about these techniques - is that they can also be applied to negative people in my life. It works externally just as well as it does internally.

You are simply piercing through what the mystics called the Veil of Isis. Introspection will help you I feel, more than consensus reality or various manufactured illusions and delusions that those close to you cling to in order to distance themselves from the void, but really seek solace in the fact that the path that you are on is well-trodden and others have been there before you.

The fundamental problem is "desire", of any sort, which stems from the Ego. Individuals who, through circumstances or deliberate means, manage to chip away at the Ego, pretty much all go through this "dark night of the soul".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

Have you read Nietzsche? His concept of the Übermensch is particularly useful I feel.

Also John C. Lilly and his concept of metaprogramming. If all that can be said to exist is the Void, then the first step to finding peace, is to give yourself fully to it. On this, the occultist Aleister Crowley used the concept of Babalon which exacts a heavy price (the blood of the adept, meaning his self-identity).

When that realization sets in and there is no fixed "I" there anymore, everything becomes easier.

One becomes what one imagines...

I'm gonna be "that guy" and ask - have you tried psychedelics? If so, what was the experience like? I have no good advice to offer since clearly everyone else has that covered, but I am genuinely curious about how you're wired.

Thanks for that, very interesting.

> Open Water SCUBA License, Private Pilots License, Skydiving license, Hit 100 some odd countries traveling, Competitively Cycled/Ran etc...

Genuinely curious: why did you pursue those things listed, and did you enjoy them? Or was it to check a ticklist?

Also, I've assumed you've been on a sex binge before? Nothing came out of that?

why did you pursue those things listed, and did you enjoy them? Or was it to check a ticklist?

I thought I would, so I started. Never really did, but kept doing it assuming that if I got better at it then it would become enjoyable. Never happened.

I've assumed you've been on a sex binge before? Nothing came out of that?

Three kids!

But seriously...yes 2005-6 was basically that. But no, those kind of serotonin binges are short lived and tend to be tolerance inducing - meaning you need more to get a bigger enjoyment "bump," at least that's what happened in my case and those are generally more destructive and risky than the benefits.

Do you play any sports?

Personally I find the pursuit of mastery in my chosen sport very meditative, and it also offers the right amount of social contact for me.

If you get along with your opponents or teammates, you can chat with them during the match, otherwise I just concentrate on my game and try to win every single point.

Even when I lose, I always have a list of things I've done well during the match and a list of things that I need to work on. And if you have some metrics by which you can see improvement, there's a sense of satisfaction that comes from seeing that improvement as well.

I think you might want to step back and ask yourself what you expect life to offer you and if those expectations are too high. Sounds like a great life, and you seem to be letting the beautiful things slip through the cracks, because you're judging them not good enough.

At a certain point you realize that experiences and stuff are equally as meaningless in the end.

In a finite physical universe, nothing has intrinsic meaning. The only meaning anything has, is the meaning that you attribute to that thing. Thus, anything that is meaningful to you, is the most meaningful thing in the universe.

No goal is better than any other, because there is no universally defined "better", everything just "is". Therefore, you are free to say that the goal you have chosen is better than any other, and you would be correct, because just by choosing it, you have changed the balance.

>In a finite physical universe

I am pretty existential too, so I agree with you generally...but I'm not sure what this clause has to do with the rest of what you said.

- finite: Infinity is weird. It's very hard to make arguments that hold when infinite resources are in the picture. Finite also includes the time dimension. If you have infinite time and/or space, intrinsic meaning may be possible, but I really have no idea.

- physical: That there is no other plane of existence to progress towards, heaven or enlightenment or anything else similar to those.

- universe: Whatever it is that we inhabit - multiverse, universe, inside of a black hole, we're not quite sure yet as far as I understand the physics (which isn't very far at all unfortunately. It is fascinating though)

In your second clause i think perhaps you mean materialist[|ic] (or maybe physicalist) not physical. A soul, heaven, or other spiritual entities or spaces, aren't necessarily incompatible with a physical universe.

'tis a fair point, thanks.

I agree in principal, Hence, why I suggested Camus in my original comment.

But what happens when you can't attribute meaning to anything? Do you revert to religion or suicide (Those were the three options for camus)?

Yeah, I know that feeling - it is hard to get past it when it happens and it certainly takes a while for me every time it happens.

This is certainly not a universal cure, but for me the ideas presented in this ted talk have helped: https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy?...

So, set a goal and work towards that - but, looking at your profile that suggestion seems trite and silly, because you are and have been doing that for some time. Doing difficult things falls into the same category.

My suggestion would be to pick something completely pointless - something that you could easily pay someone to do for you, better than you have time-skill for and then do that.

For example, I'm building a house. Fairly big, not huge, wooden. I have no training in it and it has taken 5 years of evenings and weekends so far. Any reasonable construction team would have finished in 6 months and it would have had better quality of work.

I love it - it makes me happy to look at the small bit that I finished yesterday and somehow it gives me a sense of purpose. Maybe it's just a distraction - something to keep away the existential dread, but so what, because nothing has intrinsic value, this purpose is the best possible purpose for me.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it!

As an IT person, I am slightly jealous of people who can, at the end of the day, point at a physical thing that they have created.

At the end of my day I often feel that I have just kept the cogs grinding for another day. I do feel that my work is "important", and I'm good at it, and the money surely improves my quality of life, but it'd sure be nice to be outside sometimes in the real world digging a hole or planting a tree or something, not just the endless arranging of remote electrons.

As also an IT person, I agree! :)

Frankly what you describe is exactly why I started building real things as a hobby.

> But what happens when you can't attribute meaning to anything? Do you revert to religion or suicide (Those were the three options for camus)?

Is this not the basis for The Myth of Sisyphus? If I recall correctly, Camus rejects both religion and suicide as ultimately absurd.

No, the universe is absurd. The response to absurdity is giving up (death, credulous belief) or acceptance and defining meaning.

Neither. He reject them both.

When you can't attribute meaning to anything, Camus says, according to some of my self-interpretation, that you have to live while accepting the triviality of it all. Live while acknowledging death is a perfectly valid alternative and nothing is really stopping you committing suicide. But only when you are on that edge are you truly living,

Is this attitude something you are satisfied to stay with, or is it something you are interested in changing? Is your end goal to eventually be something like most people who are able to attribute meaning to experiences and stuff? I am assuming that you did all those things (travelling, family, etc) because you thought you'd get some sense of fulfilment out of them.

It's an honest question. I can imagine that a life without meaning would feel, well... meaningless.

terryf has a fantastic comment, but what end are you talking about, death?

A good way of figuring out what you value is considering if you die tomorrow, why wouldn't you (assuming you aren't suicidal). If you really don't matter either way then why not just do the thing that feels good?

Well that's essentially what I do - with an over current of dread.

I think if I could afford it I would probably be a habitual heroin user. From what I read, it seems to push all of the same biochemical "happiness" and "fulfillment" buttons as all of the other relationship/activity/experience things that people like to do, albeit with some side effects.

Hahaha. Easily said by someone who has never done opiates. Drugs aren't the creme de la creme either. Nothing grand stays grand. Drugs come with tolerance and general malaise.

They do, for a few minutes; the rest of the time, everything becomes even worse. And the experience is never quite like the first times, even by pushing up the doses. At least, that's what the users and ex-users I've known describe. Personally, I wouldn't trade even a life of quiet desperation for that.

Other replies were a little salty, and I can only say from personal experience------- but the awareness that you're out of it takes away some of the sanctuary of being high... especially if you're even moderately comfortable (in life, in mind, etc). Feels like you didn't come by it honest, and ruins it some.

On the other hand, if you're stuck in a shithole with a metric tonne of inner demons, it's pretty much tops.

Contentment, opiates. Happiness... like that innocent 'AHHHHH TOMORROW'S CHRISTMAS!' joy, I'd say MDMA instead

What happens if you have no problem with doing so? I would be perfectly comfortable with committing suicide any which time. I just don't do it because I don't have a reason to do so, but otherwise, meh.

'Realize' is a strong claim, experiences may indeed be meaningless or they may not be. How could anyone ever prove one way or another? But if one could be convinced they were indeed meaningful, it might provide an avenue for happiness.

May I ask is it possible you desire something to desire?

is it possible you desire something to desire?

That's an interesting philosophical ouroboros.

Yes but it's also a practical psychological question. A person can come to a mental state where nothing in life interests them yet they wish there was something they enjoyed.

So, although possibly mundane, there is a point of view where the question "does anything in life have meaning" is less interesting than the question "is everything ok".

This is exactly what I'm talking about. We are just biological organisms evolved over millions of years to simply continue the human race. Why would you expect to find meaning?

Could you elaborate? I'm in a place where stuff does not matter anymore (never did actually) and I try to focus on experiences. Is that path also a mistake?

If nothing matters to you, there are no mistakes.

Dawson had an interesting response. I can't give you an answer. Maybe it will for you, maybe it won't. Beats not trying I suppose.

So, a living cushy enough to not be impressed with anything?

I have no idea, maybe?

I know that I've lived on the other side of it - growing up working poor, basically homeless from ages 9-11 and then gritting through over a decade of eating shit in the military. Seeing combat helps put things in perspective to the immediate now, but that only goes so far as you just realize that there are amazing people that have had lives "cut short" unnecessarily and that there was no real purpose to it.

Thanks for your honesty.

If you would take some time and explain what it is that attracts you in Camus writings, maybe I'll understand you better.

Simply the idea that in the absence of universal meaning, it is the individual that must create meaning. It's along the same idea of what Thompson is writing about.

The downside of this approach is if the firmament for what you created meaning from crumbles or never really materializes, leaving a void.

I really appreciate (and am very fascinated by) your extreme honesty in this thread.

I've read Camus twice. The first time I read The Stranger, I took away meaninglessness, in the sense that existentialism seemed true.

The second time, I nearly threw up (no, I wasn't reading Nausea :-D), but in the sense that I don't think I've ever felt anything was so absolutely evil and wrong, and existentialism false.

I can't explain this in a philosophical way, and it may be a delusional and biased opinion given my life experiences between the two readings, but I think observing intuitions does hint at universal meaning. Intuitions might be intellectual observations of objective truths no different, in principle, from observations of atoms, or reason itself.

Reading this thread, and resonating with much of what you say, may I suggest maybe that it's not the meaning or a meaning, but simply the search for meaning itself (which I realise was the title of Viktor Frankl's book) that might offer some structure.

I don't know if it's our brain wiring, chemistry, experiences, psychological development path dependencies, or what, but I'm pretty convinced that human brains are pattern-seeking systems, and finding and establishing patterns, ordering our universes, is one fundamental drive.

It also turns out that that's what I've been directly and principally focusing on for the past few years, mostly because I can't not.

Several of the activities and compulsions you mentioned above strike me as behaviors which feed the brain's reward systems fairly directly (drugs, alcohol, sex, extreme activities), and your combat and other experiences may also affect that -- not judgement or anything, just mapping for me of "what does the brain seek, how does it work, how is it itself re-shaped by experiences?".

The advantage of taking a shortcut is to get to a destination faster. The advantage of taking the long way around, or exploring a space, is often to get a far stronger sense of the interconnections within that space. I thrive on connections, myself, so that has appeal.

No idea how this strikes you, but offered for consideration.

I've nothing to offer except my own experience. I deconverted from a fundamentalist church and had to rebuild my life because I realized that external factors do not give meaning to it, the origin of something does not give it value, and the end of it all is the same.

I don't have much patience with myself getting into the same thought patterns. Perhaps this lack of patience is the must important skill I acquired.

If you're competitive and come from a technical background, you might enjoy playing chess?

Sounds familiar. Maybe a personality disorder, something I am wondering about myself as well.

Oh no, no disorder - just life. There is no external meaning, so whatever you decide is it. If you don't decide on anything it's not a disorder: Maybe there just is no good reason to decide on something. In novels like LOTR or war movies life is made meaningful by letting the environment dictate your choice, i.e. limiting your options severely. The paradox of choice shows itself on more than making it tougher to select the right brand of strawberry jam out of 20... :)

I have chosen to use a little bit of chemistry to view life. You don't have chemical reactions where every single molecule reacts. It's a probabilistic model: You throw them all into the pot, and then chance dictates that the right molecules actually meet, which is a function of how quickly they move around (increases chances of meeting your destiny to combine with others into the product), how many there are, etc.

To nature, we are just like those molecules. Whether we meet conditions where we can combine fruitfully depends - and on A LOT more variables than in a simple chemical reaction. And it gets worse! Because the complexity of our solutions keeps increasing! Which means it gets harder and harder to find the right conditions (which includes the right people) for all to combine. Take Einstein and Newton for example. What is overlooked that without their environment, which includes society and hundreds of people they were in contact with, tens of thousands when also counting indirect connections, was essential. You can throw a protein into a soup and nothing happens, only when the exactly right conditions and exactly the appropriate other molecules are present will something happen.

So I don't worry about it too much. I see myself as part of a big probabilistic thing. I am ready and somewhat searching for "my" right conditions, but that is all I'm actually supposed to do by nature. So if I don't find them I just have a good time before it all ends (in my case that does not mean partying).

Somewhat related, from a cartoonist:

- http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102965026826/goals-are-for-lose...

- http://blog.dilbert.com/post/102964992706/goals-vs-systems

I added the links for the parts about "system vs. goal - why goals are bad" (I don't want to touch that "you have limited willpower" thing with a ten foot pole, or the simplistic nutrition advice that is only an aside anyway). This goes along nicely with what I mean, if you can see it.

    > Goals work great for simple situations. But the world is rarely simple these days.
    > You don’t know what your career will look like in a year. You don’t know what the
    > economy will be doing, or which new technologies will hit the scene. Your personal
    > life is just as unpredictable. The future is a big ball of complexity if you look
    > out far enough. And that means your odds of picking the one best goal for you are
    > slim, and the odds of achieving it are even slimmer, because everything is a moving
    > target.
    > ...

(Read the 1st link, that's just the introduction.)

    > And while you’re at it, stop worrying about whether you have enough passion for
    > success. Passion comes from success; success doesn’t come from passion.

EDIT: I found that Scott Adams has been linked to by others too, this exact same thing, "systems vs. goals".

I meant more in the sense that a lot of personality disorders involve a chronic sense of emptiness and identity disturbances.

See http://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/feel...

> So I don't worry about it too much.

That's nice. My fomo is seriously crippling my ability to move forward in life. Feels like I am currently stopped in my tracks out of fear that I would lose options.

In my experience, there is no joy without faith.

In my experience there is.

That's certainly equally valid. But my brief comment was meant to also be a humble suggestion of another place to look - another thing worth trying. It's a viewpoint that definitely seems to be in the minority in this forum, but it's an important one to consider. A couple more ideas worth considering: - Coming to a place of faith starts like everything; it begins with the desire to have faith. - Consider the possibility that reason and faith are not mutually exclusive, but actually complementary (just give that concept a chance before dismissing it - it has a very strong intellectual history)

A faith in what?

One definition of faith found on the internet: "Belief not supported by evidence or reason, but assumption alone."

I have seen many people finding happiness and/or purpose in believing various things not supported by evidence or reason, and have always wondered: how to choose which of these I should believe?

Start small. I am going to refer you to some scripture but I am not asking you to accept it a priori as truth, only to investigate whether there may be any truth in it. Hebrews 11:6 says that he who comes to God "must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".

Essentially what I am asking you to believe is the truth of "seek and ye shall find"... that it is possible to find, provided that you seek.

I am not telling you what you will find, how you will find it, what it will look like or sound like, etc., but only that there is something waiting to be found.

Then if you take some steps towards God, you will be rewarded and you will learn a little bit about faith Again I am not going to presume I know exactly what those steps are for you but I will tell you I believe with all my heart that there ARE steps you can take, and even if you take the wrong steps, as long as you are seeking God I believe that he will reward you for your efforts, if only by correcting you from your misguided path.

I hope this has been helpful. God bless.

What a load of codswallop.

I find it insulting to my intelligence to be asked to believe something with no evidence, and when I ask for evidence to be told that I shouldn't be asking.

If god is willing to prevent Evil, but not able, he is not omnipotent. If he is able but not willing, he is malevolent. If he is able and willing, then whence cometh evil? If he is neither able nor willing, why call him god?

You bring up two issues here - the need for evidence, and the problem of pain and suffering. There are of course a lot of resources on both sides of the coin about those issues. I'll just summarize my very limited understanding - my personal approach. My faith is evidence based - but it can't be 100% proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. Since it can't be proven, I'm forced to continue to grow in my understanding, and humbly continue the journey. And I have to make a deliberate choice to believe - based on the evidence I see and experience in my life. Also, since it can't be proven, I can't convince you to accept it - you have to do your own searching - you have to make your choice. I believe that this is by design, and I find it to be beautiful.

The problem of pain and suffering is a lot harder to address in a brief comment. Nothing I can say in a few short lines will be very satisfying, unless you already believe or are wanting to believe. Here are a few thoughts...

Pain and suffering are not good in and of themselves, but good can come from them.

In order to escape all pain and suffering, we would have to surrender our freewill - and then what would be the point to life anyway?

My level of understanding will always be limited. I have to approach this journey with humility. I can know a lot, but I can't know everything. I will work to alleviate pain and suffering where I can, and trust that in end, all the pain and suffering in the world will have brought about a glorious end that will be worth it.

> In order to escape all pain and suffering, we would have to surrender our freewill

Why? I can write a game where you have choice, but no pain or suffering. Is God worse programmer?

> and then what would be the point to life anyway?

There's no "point to life". It's a sandbox game you have ~80 years to experience. Enjoy, while you can, and don't be a dick.

> Why? I can write a game where you have choice, but no pain or suffering. Is God worse programmer?

If our choices were reduced to those which could not cause pain and suffering, life would resemble a game; our choices would lack any consequence. Thankfully, life is much more than a game.

> and don't be a dick

This advice is curious to me. How do you derive this from your beliefs? I can understand you saying "don't be a dick just to be a dick", because that would cause pointless suffering. But if I can advance my own wealth or happiness by being a dick in such a way that I can reasonably avoid retribution, why shouldn't I?

> our choices would lack any consequence

consequences doesn't have to cause suffering. You can live in one country or another - meeting different people, eperiencing different thigs, learning different cultures. How is it less of a consequence than developing a cancer?

The rest of your argument is taking a mataphor literally, and asserting it's less true thanks to the existence of evil. Why? How would the life be worse if there were no diseases and wars?

> How do you derive this from your beliefs?

I'm not special. Other people have their lives too, and by being a dick I decrease their enjoyment of their short lives. I don't have any reasons to value my enjoyement over theirs (or vice versa).

I have counter-question BTW - would you go around murdering people and stealing from them if there was no hell and no police? That's what your argument boils down to - "without a stick and a carrot why bother with morality"?

There are more consequences than just hell and jail - and a faith or belief system purely motivated on hell and/or jail is an immature one.

My argument boils down to Natural Law, and it sounds to me like yours does too. When you say "I don't have any reasons to value my enjoyment over theirs" - I would totally agree, but I still don't understand how you arrive at that without a belief in Natural Law.

An argument that doesn't rely on Natural Law goes something like this: We have evolved into highly social beings, so our internal physiology naturally rewards us for socially constructive behavior, so we choose to not be a dick because being a dick feels bad. It's a purely selfish motivation because that is what is purely rational.

My limited understanding of Natural Law comes from CS Lewis and Thomas Aquinas, but I did a quick search before writing this reply and I see that it has some backing in atheistic thought. Is that where your coming from?

> I still don't understand how you arrive at that without a belief in Natural Law

I don't believe in things that seem unlikely and have no proofs.

The theory that my feelings are more valuable than that of other people seems unlikely (why my out of all people) and I have no evidence supporting it. Therefore I assume it's false and act accordingly.

Why would you need some external law for that train of thought? All you need is logic and probability theory.

I get the impression that religious people actually have no internal moral compass of their own so therefore need a set of external rules in order to not be dickish.

Because of this necessity, they can't understand how other people can have morals without a set of rules, even self-contradictory, ambiguous rules passed down from a supernatural being via the mysterious hallucinations of desert people thousands of years ago.

> I get the impression that religious people actually have no internal moral compass

I'm quite certain that's not true. At least it wasn't true for me when I was religious, and it's not true for most of the religious people I know (and I live in 95% Catholic country, at least in theory).

For one example - I've spoken with many Catolics who thought it's "not fair" that a serial murderer can escape eternal punishment with last minute atonement, but a women that was in a marriage with abusive husband and then met her "other half" - has to sacrifice her love till death because of 1 unintentional mistake in the past.

If people actually believed morality comes from God only - they wouldn't think twice about this. God says so and that's it.

On the other hand it's hard to distinguish external and internal motivation when you have it constantly mixed by the religion, rituals, etc. And people like to find explanations fo why they (and you) need religion - external morality seems to be a popular excuse.

> For one example - I've spoken with many Catolics who thought it's "not fair" that a serial murderer can escape eternal punishment with last minute atonement, but a women that was in a marriage with abusive husband and then met her "other half" - has to sacrifice her love till death because of 1 unintentional mistake in the past.

I find it very difficult to discuss these things without saying things that religious people might find offensive (questioning too much seems to be frowned upon for some reason), but I'll try:

So they think it's "not fair", yet they still identify with a religion where this is announced to be the case.

So are you saying they think it's not fair but still believe unfortunately that's the way it is, or are you saying that they think that it's actually not true and won't happen?

Or are you saying that they have an internal moral compass that says that such eternal damnation is immoral, but set it aside because of the rules of the religion?

I guess the difference is that they think it's "not fair", and I think it's not true, and clearly nothing but a fairy tale manufactured to pressure people to keep going to church out of fear.

If someone is already doomed with eternal damnation, then why not keep doing bad stuff?

I'm being flippant, but actually with the massive loophole of last minute atonement, why not just do bad stuff all the time, until the last minute? Hopefully you will get time to spit out a quick "sorry" at the end. Is this what all the pedophile priests and their co-conspirators are planning to do?

> it's hard to distinguish external and internal motivation when you have it constantly mixed by the religion, rituals, etc.

True. I think the peer pressure when your community identifies with a particular religion is a large factor as well. If there wasn't so much peer pressure and the threat of shunning and excommunication, there would probably be many less outwardly religious people around.

I cringe when I hear sports stars thanking god, as if with all the misery and suffering in the world, god still puts it as a priority to be personally interested in whether a millionaire manages to win a sports event or not.

> So are you saying they think it's not fair but still believe unfortunately that's the way it is

I can't talk for everybody, but often it's "I can't understand this, this makes no sense, but it's written that human won't understand God, so whatever, I just have to follow, not to question.". Also there's one story in the New Testament about this - basically saying that God can be inconsistent and unfair if it's in favour to someone and not against anybody. Everybody else shouldn't complain because they got what was promised.

> If someone is already doomed with eternal damnation, then why not keep doing bad stuff?

She's not doomed, she's just expected to live in abusive marriage till the end. Or at least never start a new marriage.

> I'm being flippant, but actually with the massive loophole of last minute atonement, why not just do bad stuff all the time, until the last minute?

Well, you can die at any moment, it's a huge bet. Also intentionaly exploiting loopholes like this is a "sin against Saint Ghost" if I remember correctly, and it's not forgiveable. On the other hand if you weren't a Catholic in the first place - baptize 1 minute before death and it's all peachy, even if you were Hitler.

> I don't believe in things that seem unlikely and have no proofs.

Neither do I.

So I guess my parting comment is that we all need to do a better job of discussing opposing belief systems with mutual respect. There are good arguments on both sides - and I would suggest that if that statement sounds ridiculous, you've not been sincerely listening to the other side, or you've only heard straw man arguments. It's not black and white - and being closed minded is not something unique to one side or the other.

Let's try to hear both sides out - and develop an understanding of each other's beliefs and non-beliefs rather than dropping into an "us" vs "them" stance. Truth does not need to be defended with anger or violence. There's no need to convince or convert - we just need to be true to our search. Truth is often hard to find, but it's not fragile.

I've resisted providing specific evidence for my beliefs because I can reasonably expect for it to not be well received in this forum. But if anyone is interested in a good example of a balanced and civil debate of Christianity vs. Atheism, based on evidence and reason, this is a pretty good one -- https://youtu.be/fEw8VzzXcjE

I am not posting that in an attempt to convert or convince - I'm certain it will do neither. I'm posting it in attempt to encourage civil discussion, and exchange of ideas and beliefs. Notice in the debate the mutual respect the speakers give to each other.

Close-mindedness and hatred exists in every belief system. Let's try to encourage one another on our respective paths. Let's encourage one another to relentlessly seek truth.

Have I been aggressive? It wasn't my intention. I was Catholic for first 25 years of my life (+-, hard to find the exact turning point), and I was quite hardcore for most of that time (not drinking till 18 because I promised when I was 8 for one example). I've also been at Catholic middle school, and I have lots of good friends I respect intelectually that are Catholic (hard not to - in Poland). So I'd say I know the arguments both ways by now :) I've always had problems with theodicea, though.

In my experience intelectual argument may make it easier to switch position eventually, but what makes people convert is life experiences and ideology influencing their lives adversely. So, the discussions are mostly for entertainment.

> Let's encourage one another to relentlessly seek truth.

Let's.

> My faith is evidence based - but it can't be 100% proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. Since it can't be proven

Actually evidence is proof. You're just writing a bunch of words. All your mysterious and humble, "can't know everything...", "learn for yourself" patronizing garbage that doesn't make sense. blah blah blah.

How exactly do you decide which particular ridiculous idea to believe, when you don't need any proof?

> in end, all the pain and suffering in the world will have brought about a glorious end that will be worth it.

That's also codswallop.

See, I've worked in health, and to me that sounds like exactly what someone who has been in the privileged position to never have witnessed or experienced real suffering would write as a flippant, shallow and superficial expression to discount how much needless suffering there actually is in the world.

When you see young children struck down with horrible diseases that cause constant pain and ruin the lives of their families, for no reason but an unlucky genetic abnormality, I can't consolidate that with your idea of "a glorious end", and it's also impossible for me to not attribute blame to a supposedly omnipotent being that would allow such needless suffering when they presumably have the ability to prevent it.

So take your godly rubbish and go and parrot it to the rest of the congregation in your echo chamber of useless rhetoric, and give up on trying to convert reasonable people.

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