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Comment by bitL | Hacker News Reader

Great! Finally somebody explained this to me, I thought it was just a marketing term related to different patents of similar ideas.

I was puzzled by this as I was stopped by a ranger coming out of Waipio Valley on Hawai'i, where there was a sign "4WD only" and my rental car had AWD. I thought they were the same, just different names, so I argued with the ranger that I do in fact have 4WD, which is in my case just called AWD and in other cases 4x4 as well. Well, he was still pretty upset but the "I am a European and we have different cars" finally disarmed him...

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Generally a sign saying you need 4wd in the US really means you need a lot of ground clearance. Your car probably would have high-centered, that is stuck resting on the middle of the car with the tires in the air.

The annoyed ranger was probably just tired of pulling stuck tourists out.

The Waipio Valley road, as I understand it, is mostly paved but extremely steep and narrow/twisty. So the 4x4 requirement is probably more about being able to control speed without burning up brakes and dealing with often wet conditions.

However, in the general case throughout most of the US West, "4WD roads" do indeed tend to be as much about having high clearance as about having 4WD per se. It's also just a way of saying that, if you just have a random rental car and aren't used to driving very rough and often narrow/exposed roads, this is probably not a good idea.

And in particular, the Hawaiian rental car counters will tell you when you rent which roads your car is not allowed to go on.

I've always wondered why this matters. I've got car insurance, I've got additional rental coverage on my credit card, and there are plenty of other vendors from whom to rent cars if you want to blacklist me.

Well, they still have trouble with you if you get stuck or wreck the car, so it is easier for them to just list the "forbidden" roads. Not sure, but your insurance might be void if you crash the car where you were not supposed to drive.

They probably don't want you taking a road you shouldn't, getting hurt, and then suing them because they didn't warn you about the dangers. Or they get tired of having all their cars smashed up. Insurance covers it, but it's still annoying.

Having violated this all the time I've been to Hawai'i I can understand why do they do that - for example, if you continue on the road to Hāna/Maui beyond, down to the southern side of Haleakalā the road becomes really dodgy, later turns into gravel and there is no water/gas for xy miles available, so for casual American tourists it might be pretty scary. Also, driving the north-western part of Maui is on a very narrow road over cliffs and fallen rocks (not as bad as parts of Tenerife though). I actually had an encounter on a pretty tall cliff where I was driving Subaru Forrester and some US female celebrity named Kim was driving the opposite way in even a larger car; we drove past each other with smiles in about 1mph to avoid collision and she must have been right on the edge with her car while I was almost scratching the right side rocks. Even Saddle Road between Maunas on the Big Island could be pretty demanding to casual tourists in fog and really slippery when descending down to Hilo in strong rain, which is like always (saw a crash once). There are also some scary roads on Kaua'i and O'ahu. In US it's so much easier to get a driving license than in EU, so your casual drivers are not used to fast and safe driving like in Germany, many off-road segments like in Spain or navigating chaotic situations as in 3rd world countries, and your society is generally on the safe side (even excessively so).

I have heard this before as well, but having rented cars in Maui many times I can't say that I have ever been told not to drive on certain roads.

In Death Valley they often specify 4x4 high clearance. Of course, you don't REALLY need 4wd or even 2wd; you can tackle it on a motorcycle :)

In Death Valley you rather need more spare tires (if you go e.g. to Racetrack; seen a car that got 2 punctures at different locations). Otherwise high clearance is needed only if you go off-the-beaten track; even Titus Canyon is fine on a normal road vehicle.

Normally I would 2nd this, but it does not apply on this particular 4x4 road. It really sucks when opposing traffic appears as it's barely wide enough for 1 vehicle in most parts:

The road gains 800 vertical feet (243.84 m) in 0.6 miles (0.9 km) at a 25% average grade, with steeper grades in sections. This is a paved public road but it is open only to 4 wheel drive vehicles. It is the steepest road of its length in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waipio_Valley

That doesn't seem that bad for normal traffic, conditions permitting - unless the steeper gradients are markedly so. I'm sure they have their reasons for 4wd only though - picking too many tourists out of the ditches or whatever.

There's quite a few roads in the UK with 1:4 gradient, and one just down the road from me at 1:3 whose only restriction is no trucks and vans. Going downhill on the motorbike makes it feel like you're falling off! :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardknott_Pass

There are roads in Spain with 1:4 gradient, too. 200 of the world's best cyclists rode up some of them in today's stage of the Vuelta a Espana. I'm no slouch cycling up hills but my jaw dropped seeing today's footage...

Here in New Zealand we lay claim to the steepest street in the world at 1:2.86 gradient https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street.

There's an annual charity event that involves the rolling of over 30,000 Jaffas (spherical confectionery-coated chocolate confectionery) down the hill.

How have I not heard of this event? Sounds similar to (and less dangerous than) cheese rolling.

They have a sign now - no AWD allowed. Super steep road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xGp5anlXSA

The video posted in another comment doesn't look that bad.

I am not sure about the grade, but one of the Bangalore's weekend gateway has some steep sections(a low average grade but some sections are steep).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0_MyaPzM88

That footage is from a rally but every weekend, fwd cars with 800/1000cc engines and a peak torque of about 70 Nm do it just fine. Most of the cars have 2-5 occupants decreasing the already low torque/kg, and almost the whole climb is done in a bumper to bumper traffic(no momentum for the climb).

https://dc-cdn.s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/dc-Cover-nj6b...

>Generally a sign saying you need 4wd in the US really means you need a lot of ground clearance

The Subaru Outback (AWD) has 8.7" of ground clearance. The Ford Explorer ("Intelligent" 4WD) has a ground clearance of 7.8".

If "Intelligent 4WD" means some kind of differential, then it really is just a marketing term at this point, though I learned about the distinction between 4WD and AWD when I bought a Subaru.

It's about more than just ground clearance. Approach and departure angles matter too. The Outback has long overhangs, especiially the front.

Also 4WD cars generally have a super low gear for crawling at low speeds & high torque whereas AWD cars usually don't have a similar gear. Low gear is critical on steep grades, particularly descending them so you can go down safely and slowly without riding your brakes and overheating them.

It was some US-made SUV (Ford or GM, can't recall which one) with fairly high clearance - I specifically booked it so that I can go everywhere (Waipio, Mauna Kea etc.). The road to valley was fine, it was also dry and the only possible issue could have been crossing a few streams at the bottom of the valley, but SUV had no problem there as well (clearance was sufficient). I experienced far worse roads on Tenerife while blindly following a route computed by then NOKIA maps that took me to super steep straight-up roads where my car ended up spinning all wheels unable to move up ;-)

AWD is meant for adverse conditions on a road and will probably help on a unpaved road. Think rain, ice, snow. It will keep you on the road.

4WD is meant for off road conditions. You get more torque so you'll be able to get over rocks and out of ditches. The downside is you shouldn't use it over 10mph or so.

I can't think of any recent car that is 4WD. It doesn't make sense since you'll probably never be "off road". Cars don't have proper ground clearance.

> The downside is you shouldn't use it over 10mph or so.

That's not strictly true, and varies between implementations/transfer case designs. In Jeep Wranglers, for example, which have both high and low gearing options in 4WD, the owner's manual will indicate that you can drive at any speed (on loose surfaces such as sand or dirt) in 4HI and 0–25 MPH in 4LO.

You right that's why I said 10 or so. Try taking a turn at 25 in 4LO. I'm not sure of the use case for 25 in LO. My Grand Cherokee can operate the same way but I doubt I would go into LO at those speeds. It also will switch to 4HI when it detects wheel slip.

A friend of mine had a old truck that would randomly switch to 4LO on the highway. It's pretty scary driving 60 and having 4LO switch on.

In dirt taking the turn at 25 is fine. The inside wheel will just spin a little.

Outside wheel wants to travel more than the drivetrain so it would slip, not spin correct?

The inside wheel would spin if the outside doesn't slip.

Oops you are correct

More often than not, even more so than slip, the outer wheel will "hop". This is especially true, if you've done something potentially unintelligent like welding the spider gears together.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. On high traction surfaces like dry pavement, the outer wheel does tend to hop during turns.

Any new Land Rover or Range Rover? They come with 2 locking differentials, with 3rd being an option that can be added extra. Same with Mercedes G-class - they come with 3 locks as standard. And I've no idea what you mean by "cars don't have proper ground clearance" - just buy a one that does?

I think he means regular 'cars' rather than 4×4s (or SUVs).

Sorry, I forgot that in US "cars" and "SUVs" are two different things. Where I am from there is no such distinction, a Land Rover is still a "car".

Yes, here too. It's especially confusing now as the line between the two is increasingly blurred.

>Any new Land Rover or Range Rover? They come with 2 locking differentials, with 3rd being an option that can be added extra.

Source? Center locking diffs are more or less standard, rear lockers are options in LR3/4/post 2004 Disco's, Sports and Range Rovers (although standard in some, I think the Supercharged and possibly the SVRs, but I'd need to check) Front lockers are not factory options and I don't ever recall seeing after market lockers for these models advertised.

Defenders, Discos upto 2004, Range Rover classics (and probably P38s) and all series vehicles have the standard after market options for front and rear lockers.

I had a 2005 Discovery LR3 V8(US Spec, imported to EU) and I could swear it had 3 diffs - at least the 4x4 Info screen would always show 3 diffs working independently when I was driving it offroad. Of course I might be remembering it incorrectly, but a quick search on google shows "genuine Land Rover Discovey 3 front differential" part on ebay, so I guess it must exist?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/182246825443?lpid=122&chn=ps&...

They have differentials on the front, but they're not "locking" differentials, they're "open" differentials, no locking capability at all.

Center diffs are for the most part (in Land Rovers) locking differentials, though some Discovery IIs had open center diffs and things like Freelanders use a viscous coupling in place of a mechanical diff lock.

Newer models have an electronically controlled locking diff in the gearbox (center) and an optional electronically controlled locking differential at the rear.

But front diffs on modern Land Rovers are open.

Edit: Here is an image showing the locking diffs on an LR3/Discovery 3: http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/attachments/f41/37257d1...

Note the center diff is unlocked (or open) and the rear is locked, there is no option to lock the front, which will always be open.

I don't think you understand what I mean. When I say car it doesn't include SUVs/trucks. The difference used to be cars (unibody) vs SUVs/trucks (body on frame). A lot of SUVs are now unibody including my Grand Cherokee.

There are many types of SUVs and trucks with 4wd in the US. I guess in Europe you only have Land Rovers or G-wagons. I don't think GLs or MLs are common in EU but you can get beefed up off road packages in the US.

As I explained in my other comment - I forgot that in US, "car" and "suv" are two different things. You could have a Ford F150 or a Chevy Escalade here and it would still be a "car" , just like a car without roof is still a car but of a subtype "cabriolet".

This distinction isn't really understood in the UK either, at least not as far as I've ever seen. If your car drives all 4 wheels, it has 4 wheel drive - no, seriously! - and you just have to know what its limitations might be. AWD vs 4WD seems to be one of those distinctions that Americans have, like drink vs beverage, that British English lacks completely.

Did they make you turn around? Did your car do fine, or did it get a bit hairy?

He actually stopped me after climbing up back to the viewing platform. The car was some US-made SUV with high clearance (don't remember if it was Ford or GM), just there was a sign AWD in the back (I specifically asked for a 4x4 rental vehicle). The road was fine, I think the issue might have been a few streams you had to cross at the bottom of the valley, but SUV had no problem with them. Ranger wanted to fine me but after arguing about 4WD, AWD, 4x4 he dropped it, still a bit angry.

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